Episode 127 / 2022.02.28
Andrew Welch, Ryan Irelan
Grab your go-bag, folks! Ryan Irelan & Andrew record another devMode standup where we talk about the nexus between all-inclusive resorts, and “Tourist Devs”.
You see it on tech Twitter all the time: how realistic is the ever-changing parade of shiny new technologies you see touted? Do you need to keep up with the Joneses?
We explain in simple terms what a “reverse proxy” is, and how it differs from a regular old proxy, how to make learning web development easier, then segue into talking about hiking & running!
We also go on to discuss the benefits of contributing to OSS projects, even if you’re a little hesitant or getting your feet wet as a contributor.
Ryan also discusses the most weighty problem he has: the dreaded yellow dot!
Andrew: Welcome to devmo fm a podcast dedicated to the tools techniques and technologies used in modern web development I'm Andrew weltch from and ny studio one zero seven
Ryan: And I'm Ryan Irelan from https://ryanirelan.com
Andrew: And today we're just doing a little stand-up talking about some stuff and one of the things that I've been doing on some of these Ryan is I've been bringing up words that I have found interesting I've always been interested in etymology. In other words, word origins so I got a word for you. A word that. Ah.
Ryan: Yes, all right? This is where you make me look stupid or or expose maze being stupid. Go ahead. Ah.
Andrew: I know I was actually thinking about that I was like you know what in fairness like you should come with some words because I'm not That's not the intent but in in in any event. Um avocado is a word that you as a vegan probably are familiar with avocado. It's probably a staple of your diet. It's probably something that you.
Ryan: Yeah, no, no, it's all.
Andrew: Eat on a regular basis am I correct.
Ryan: Yes, usually in the form of guacamole. But yes.
Andrew: Okay, well, it's still a you know it's a different form of avocado. So avocado actually has kind of an interesting etymology. Are you aware of anything about avocado. Don't Google It don't do anything like that.
Ryan: Correct.
Ryan: Um, didn't you misspell it in the show in the in their topic notes here. Okay sorry ah but I actually don't know the etymology of the word avocado.
Andrew: I mean probably. So apparently it comes from an Aztec word ahukal so what it actually means is it means testicle so when you.
Ryan: Does it mean giant seed or something giant pit giant oil.
Andrew: And if you cut an avocado in half and you leave the little pit kind of sitting in there. You will understand exactly why it has that derivation. So I just wanted to you will never look at an avocado again now Ryan when you cut 1 open to eat it. You will never look at it again. It.
Ryan: No nor will I ever take my Chef's knife and slam it into that pit in the middle to get it out and think the same thing again.
Andrew: Ah, ah, ah, you can just consider yourself like a vasectomy surgeon every time you go in there to cut up your avocado. Okay I I I've had one done and I know it's thank God It's not how it worked. They don't come at you with ah with a Chef's knife that would be horrendous.
Ryan: That's that is not how a vastectomy works as far as I know.
Andrew: I Mean it's already horrendous enough. But yeah, whatever That's a topic for another day. There's another word. Yeah maybe a different podcast so I do have something related to tech another word that I wanted to talk to you about So that word is proxy. Do you know what? a a proxy is.
Ryan: That's a different podcast.
Ryan: I mean a proxy is something that stands in front like in terms of networking it stands in front of it's something that that is is in between 2 things and and plays a role to help I guess.
Andrew: But just in general or either in terms of networking or in general or yep.
Ryan: Take something that comes at it and pass it through to the the thing behind it is how I would say.
Andrew: Yeah, and I think in in olden times like of royalty might have a proxy that is allowed to act on their behalf you know to sign agreements and do all that kind of good stuff. So the reason I wanted to bring it up is not. It's not yet another word origin thing. It's more in the framing of tech.
Ryan: Aha Yeah, do thing on on somebody's behalf that makes sense.
Andrew: So when we talk about a proxy server or a a proxy. It's something that is is sitting out there on the internet and it's kind of acting for something else and I'm bringing it up because I recently had to implement a reverse pros proxy and I thought it would be interesting to like a lot of people. That I have talked to are a little bit fuzzy on the difference between a proxy and a reverse proxy. So I just wanted to get into it real Quick. So I think some go ahead.
Ryan: So yeah,, let's do it? No I was gonna say so this come so we did um, an episode on party town and so you're coming out of that I know you spent probably way too long working On. Unparties town stuff but you did have to set up a reverse proxy right to get that to work.
Andrew: Correct and we're not going to get into the wheres and whys we we did that on a previous Dev mode episode If You're interested in party Town. Check it Out. There's also a discussion on a krafquest video so you can check them out there and we'll we'll link to those in the show notes. But I think if you want to know the difference between a proxy. And a reverse proxy here is a really easy way I think to think about it. So The full name of a proxy is really a forward proxy and that's why there is such a thing as a reverse proxy and as you mentioned before a proxy in general is something that kind of acts on something else. Ah, acts on something else's behalf right? So a forward proxy is a server that sits between the client and a server right? So you might have a forward proxy where before you go out on the internet. It goes through a a proxy server.
Ryan: Right? so.
Andrew: A firewall can be thought of as kind of ah a proxy in a way a reverse proxy is a proxy server that sits between the server and something else right? So That's the only difference is when you're using a proxy. The client is going through the proxy to go somewhere else. When you're using a reverse proxy. The server is going through the proxy to go somewhere else. So it's.
Ryan: Ah, so if you think about the like where it sits if you have like a cloud in the middle then it's okay, got it.
Andrew: You Yep exactly exactly and I guess you could say that a reverse proxy is a type of proxy just as a forward proxy is another type of proxy so a proxy in general is just something that sits in between something else or. Represents something else and the forward or the reverse just says where it sits right? and for party town We. We.
Ryan: So this is where it would be helpful to use the full name for both of them rather than a shorthand name for the for for the forward proxy.
Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, just to be more specific about it. But I thought that was something that I would mention real quick because it's a little point of confusion and I get it man you know like what's the difference between a forward proxy and a reverse proxy or a proxy and a reverse proxy I mean that's it. It's really all it is a proxy is something.
Ryan: Yeah.
Andrew: Stands in for something else. That's going to be a server in between 1 thing and another a forward proxy is one that the clients go through and a reverse proxy is something that the server goes through that's it. That's all it is.
Ryan: Next time we should. We should talk about what cores is.
Andrew: Yeah, let's that that'll be a whole nother issue and a whole whole nother level of frustration. So another thing I wanted to bring up real real quick Ryan is I know you are an avid runner right? And how long have you been an avid runner.
Ryan: Indeed.
Ryan: Ah, yes, usually um, ah seeh what it were twenty seven seven years yeah I mean not long I started basically my first midwife crisis was getting and.
Andrew: Wow, That's amazing and.
Andrew: Some people go by fast cars. Some people go to strip joints other. Ah.
Ryan: Part of that was getting into running not me. Yes, we will get like new new spouses and fast cars I Um I just started running. Yeah.
Andrew: And and the reason I'm bringing it up is we have talked about as a developer you you spend a whole lot of time focusing on really really hard problems and it's good to have some kind of a diversion or something that takes you completely out of it and I'm guessing that running is something that does that for you and.
Ryan: Yes, um, it does absolutely it also connects me with people that are not um, you know in the same space as me I do well I mean I do run I mean I live in Austin so I do run with a lot of like you know I can.
Andrew: Normiess it connects you to Normys. Ah.
Ryan: Um, always running probably with 1 like software developer or someone in similar space. But they're typically just from different backgrounds. Maybe they work at a big corporation. Maybe they're in you know product management or in marketing like so it's it's nice.
Andrew: I yeah.
Ryan: Um I run with someone That's a judge I run with um, all sorts of different people and I kind of dig that. But yes, it is to get away from this and to stop the incessant chatter in my head.
Andrew: And yeah, and it doesn't have to be running right? It can be something else running just happens to be something that works for you and is good for your body as well as your mind in terms of taking your mind off of the stuff that you're doing and focusing on some other hard task and in a former life I guess I was a runner. Um I I did ah ah a bunch of running a long time ago I don't even want to say how long it. No I did I did a couple of Marathons I Actually I didn't even realize it but I did 2 in the same year and then I just kind of gave up I was like all right I'm ah um, but.
Ryan: Did you do a triathlon or something.
Andrew: 1 of the things that I've been doing is I have advocated going on a hike every day so it's something that I get out I've got trails right near my house I go outside I go on a hike I clear my mind I do all that kind of good stuff I have made a number of aborted attempts at doing 5 k training right? and.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: The reason why those attempts have been aborted is ah partially injury. So I've been running on trails and I twisted my ankle a number of times and tried to get back out there sooner than I should have and it it was kind of stupid on my part like when I did it it was I would be running like when it was dark out.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: So I couldn't see couldn't see the roots coming and stuff like that and the reason I'm bringing it up is Ryan I am I wouldn't talk about it unless I was almost there but I am on my last week of five k training. Yeah so after I get this week's training done which the weather is not cooperating.
Ryan: Yeah.
Andrew: I'm supposed to do a run today and it's it's wet and miserable outside I don't mind running I've run in I've done this during the absolute frigid cold up here in upstate New York I don't mind that I don't mind running in snow I don't mind running in rain when it's warm outside but when it's cold and rainy I just I chicken out right.
Ryan: Right.
Ryan: Well, it's not fun. It's the only time when I've because I do a lot of trail running too. But it's the only time um on the trail especially when I'm kind of concerned about safety which is rain.
Andrew: And check it out and.
Andrew: Yeah.
Ryan: At around ° or below you can um like if you like hurt. Especially if you're running alone. You can hurt yourself and then like you know hypothermia can kick in pretty quickly. Ah.
Andrew: Well I'm insulated like an arctic walrus. So I'm not concerned about the the hypothermia part. It's just really unpleasant and I don't mind unpleasant things I mean I do development for a living So I don't mind unpleasant things. So I've been running in the cold and everything but again like when it's I'm hoping that it clears up.
Ryan: Yeah, no, it is unpleasant, but. So yeah.
Andrew: Because I really do want to get my run-in today even on days when I have a little bit of a headache or I'm not feeling great or I'm a little tired I always keep in mind that I always feel better after I have done whatever my activity is whether it's hiking or weight training or running. I always feel better. So I try and use that to kind of push myself to do it. But if it's cold and rainy out Ryan like there. There is a shot that I might not run today like I really might not do it.
Ryan: So you know the the 1 thing that you have to keep in mind is that this activity whatever it is shouldn't cause you stress it should help relieve stress. So like if you don't do the run today that doesn't mean that you're not gonna be able to run the 5 k right.
Andrew: Right.
Andrew: I understand but I like to one of the things like 1 of the reasons why I'm doing a training program is. It's nice to have something that says on this day you should do this and you're like okay I should do this and that's you know my.
Ryan: Um, you you.
Ryan: Right.
Andrew: Limited amount of structure that I allow into my life I guess.
Ryan: Right now there is no. There is a saying that you you never regret having gone for the run right? like afterward but you will regret if you skip it? Um, but but I like to not like stress myself out too much. But.
Andrew: Yes, yeah, yes, yes.
Andrew: Yeah, an absolute worst case Ryan if I really really wanted to do it. My wife has a treadmill that she runs on every day and it was funny because when we got it I was like ah you know this is. We're gonna be hanging clothes on this but man for years she has run on it almost every day during the week which is.
Ryan: There you go.
Ryan: Yeah.
Andrew: Pretty awesome. So I could run on that. The only downside to running on that is I have to face the humiliation of running in front of my family and and you know I look like ah a rhinoceros that's going out for a little jog. You know what? I'm saying like it's a little bit I don't know like I kind of like just doing it on my own if I can. Um, but my son is also into running and he has wanted to come with me so it looks like I'm gonna take him with me today assuming the weather clears up but again steering this back to tech and development people are like why you're talking about your exercise stuff I just think it somebody to keep in mind. Yeah, it's a good idea. Just.
Ryan: Because we're humans.
Andrew: Have something. It doesn't have to it doesn't even have to be exercised necessarily just something that gives you comfort that is different and I like your idea of it being something that surrounds you with people that are not in the tech community for me I just I tend to like doing this solo I think. The reason may be that it's difficult for me still and I like kind of just not having people look at me when I'm struggling you know I told my son if we go on this run. He's been doing cross-country for a while. He's also like 13 and he's ripped and all that stuff I'm like look dude when we go for this run.
Ryan: Yeah.
Andrew: You just run at your own pace and just don't worry about me cause I don't want to kill myself trying to keep up with him and I don't want I want him to have a good workout when he does it, you know? So maybe when I if I graduate to the point where I feel super comfortable going on the the runs and then maybe I would do that but I know for a fact that I will be uncomfortable.
Ryan: So yeah.
Andrew: Today for the run not just the rain part. We did a pretty intensive chess workout the other day. So my my boobies are sore right? So what what happens then no but what happens then is every bounce when you run like your muscles tense up a little bit as you're going and it's gonna be sore like every footstep.
Ryan: Oh I'm sorry yeah.
Ryan: Yeah I I think you'll I think you'll be okay, you'll be all right? Yeah well I think that I think it's good that you're that you're doing it. It does have to be running I know a lot of people that like to cycle for me cycling is just a.
Andrew: Not not terribly bad sore but a little bit sore. Yeah, well, we'll see what happens I don't know whether or I will do it but but I can yeah.
Ryan: Kind of dangerous like in Austin at least for me? Um, but there's a huge cycling community and also um I try to fit my running into a busy schedule but also not be away from my family that much when when they're home. So I run typically you know at 5 something in the morning.
Andrew: You? Yeah yeah.
Andrew: Yep.
Ryan: Um, a couple times a week but always before you know 8 am m I'm out running. Ah I okay yeah.
Andrew: There was a time when I used to cycle to work. So and when I owned a software company. Our office was about twenty one miles away and I would bike to and from work. We had a shower at the office so it was no big deal could just shower when we got there. But I did that mostly because I also had a weight loss bet with a friend of mine and I really really wanted to beat him and it was a great way to force some exercise just sitting on a bike for some reason doesn't do it for me just getting on a treadmill I don't enjoy that nearly as much as I do getting out.
Ryan: Ah, you and bets. Yeah that makes sense.
Andrew: And running outside I don't know what it is My wife does it all in the treadmill I enjoy doing exercise so much more or cardio exercise so much more when it's outside I'm not sure why yeah.
Ryan: Yeah, and I'm the same way. Um, so when is your are you running like a five k race like an organized race or is it just your own 5 k you want to run. Okay.
Andrew: No, just after this week is done the the next step after that on the little trading thing is five k right? So it's I'm almost there like my last run was ah two point nine six miles so you know yeah.
Ryan: Ah, you're you're you're a few hundred yards away. You got it. That's awesome.
Andrew: Yeah, so it's pretty close. It's pretty close. We're getting there but you know part of that is they have a warm up where you walk to warm up so it's still not quite like I would guess in it in terms of actual distance I ran it was probably like maybe two point six two point seven miles but still it's it's getting there. It's getting there. Yeah, okay.
Ryan: Yeah, it's all about progress. Excellent. So.
Andrew: Well you you had an interesting tweet that you brought up that is in that came on tech Twitter that you wanted to talk about and do you want to read the tweet or or should I yes.
Ryan: Tech slash political Twitter are you talking about the the learning web development one? yeah.
Andrew: Um, talking about the only thing that was on your list of things to talk about. So.
Ryan: Ah, okay, so this person I don't know who this is is is this someone that's kind of like well known and the web 3 technical writer. Okay, yeah.
Andrew: And I don't know who this person is but at least based on their history experience. Followers. It's probably someone that is is fairly steeped in the web development business.
Ryan: Okay, so this says want to make web learning web development easier break it into 2 paths frontend and backend with the front end being html css javascript tailwind react and then git and then the backend being node Express Mongodb and Heroku and then revisit css is is what he has um.
Andrew: Yeah, and when I saw this treat. So first of all, nothing against the person who is tweeting this because I think it's probably very very reasonable in a certain community and from a certain point of view. But when I saw this tweet and not me. But when I saw this tweet.
Ryan: Absolutely.
Andrew: I was just like wow so many people are going to be so triggered by this like they're they're going to go crazy like what do you mean? Revisit Css what do you mean? What do you mean react and then just looking at the the list of things that are supposed to make web development easier like the the list of things that you're expected to know.
Ryan: Yeah.
Andrew: Just I found it really interesting Ryan I think some people might take issue with this and.
Ryan: And I I only took issue with the backend stuff really? um I mean react like I see react being a stand like ah, a placeholder for Insert Framework here. Um, it was interesting that tailwind is like is.
Andrew: Yeah, sure.
Ryan: Is in there I think the only thing that that really ah got me was was was the backend part since um, like there are tons of ways of creating backends for for sites that aren't node Js express mongodb and then heroku that just seems so odd like it's so That's a that's a platform as a service tool. It would be like saying um, Digitalocean or something. It's just strange.
Andrew: Right. I Don't think it's odd from the perspective of someone who is more of a front end developer but but they need to have something running on a backend and heroku resist that as a service like spin it up and use it. The thing that I found really interesting is that.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ryan: It's true.
Andrew: It's an analogy I've made before is that in the web development world. There are lots of little tide pools and you go into every little different tide pool and it's entirely different than the other one I mean they're both. They're all just that kind of living doing their thing but man is it so different like if you showed this to a ruby developer. They'd be like what.
Ryan: Right.
Andrew: And I also thought that some purists would take big issue with the idea that tailwind is something you should learn and revisit css later or that react was a requirement on there I will grant you that get these days is something that I'm sorry like you just really have to get at least somewhat familiar with it because it's.
Ryan: Right.
Ryan: And.
Andrew: But everyone is using some kind of a aversion control system and and I just thought that there are lots of people that would hear this and say what this is like I'm a professional web developer I've been doing it for a decade I don't use I use only the the first 2 things on this list like what are you talking about.
Ryan: Yeah, now the tailwind thing doesn't bother me because I am definitely um, pro tailwind I've never really enjoyed writing a lot of css like it. It just hasn't been something that that really spoke to me. Um.
Andrew: You right.
Ryan: But I could definitely see a triggering a lot of people. Ah because I guess and this is the thing talking about like little tide pools is I think I like hang up mostly in the the tide pool where people are using ah a tailwind a lot but like my generation of web development which is.
Andrew: So.
Ryan: You know, late 90 s you know, kind of getting started. Ah, there's still people that that are my age still think that everyone should be writing like handrolled Css where you're kind of like building it like on a per project basis I'm not that person but ah but I could.
Andrew: That right? yeah.
Andrew: Yeah, that's the other thing is when I say that I thought people would take issue with this tweet I really don't like I look at this from the perspective like yeah this for this guy who is a Javascript developer this makes complete sense to me and if you want to spend your time.
Ryan: See people getting upset about this and.
Ryan: Yeah.
Andrew: Learning one language and getting really good at Javascript then it makes complete sense to me even though on the backend I'm typically doing stuff in php I do I do some in Javascript as well that I change.
Ryan: Yeah I just think about um, like being like in college and writing ah a paper and then I would get a note back from my professor saying I need you to define web development before you go and talk about like how to learn it because we're.
Andrew: Ah, yep.
Andrew: Oh boy.
Ryan: We're all obviously working from different definitions of web development here. Yeah.
Andrew: And I think something is happening in terms of people that are web developers have either had to become much much more technical much more technical like you know, get really good at ah you know initially Javascript was just a way to animate a banner or do some kind of you know, silly little thing.
Ryan: Absolutely.
Andrew: Now you're doing full-on application development in it and it.
Ryan: Yeah, and's so I've actually said to people I've actually qualified my use of frontend developer with in parentheses in the traditional sense because when I started a frontend developer was part one which is html css and then they could.
Andrew: Right.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan: Barely scrape by on part 2 and then everything else. No, there was no actual like writing of like application code or anything like that.
Andrew: I Yeah no for sure and I was trying to remember the point that I was getting at hold on what was I saying.
Ryan: So I don't know I probably interrupted you sorry.
Andrew: It. It's okay, um. Shit.
Andrew: Okay, and then as I mentioned as a developer you become much much more technical in terms of learning javascript and learning all of these compsi concepts like I had ah a buddy mine that was recently applying for a frontend developer job. And we looked at some of the sample questions on there and that I'm like these are compside questions like these are you know fiz buzz implement this algorithm you know this set and the other thing these are actual compside things not not something that would typically historically have been in the realm of frontend developer. And on the other side of things people then say you know what I don't really want to get into that super technical programmatic thing the other fork of frontend web developers are people that are leaning more and more on tools like a webflow or wix and they're they're using their design skills to bring the thing together and they're letting. Some other kind of platform take care of the rest of that. So. It's a real real interesting divergence not just between frontend and backend but between frontend ah frontend developers who want to become more technical and get into the real programmatic javascript side of things and frontend developers that want to lean more on the design side of things. And leverage tools like webflow and Wix and Squarespace and all that kind of stuff and this just gets back to bringing your value this just gets back to spending your time where you bring the value and also not just the value. But what you want to be doing I don't think every frontend developer should. Necessarily want to become an expert at Javascript. Some might say you know what? I I enjoy the visual aspect of it more I enjoy the design element more. But I thought that this tweet was was kind of interesting because it's one of those things that in this person's world and the people that follow. Him. Everyone's like oh yeah, this is great. This is perfectly reasonable like I totally get this and I guarantee you there's another faction of web twitter and there's another faction of tech Twitter that if they saw this I'd be like what are you talking about? are you crazy? You know this is not you know.
Ryan: Oh yeah.
Ryan: Yeah, no I mean there's there could be 12 different versions of this post and and they would all be valid and they would all exist simultaneously in different parts of of web developer world for sure. Yeah.
Andrew: You know I'm saying yes. Yeah. You yep everyone can play in their tide pool and there's nothing There's nothing wrong with it and he said you at issue with the backend again I think it makes complete sense if you want to just get good at one language like why? why learn another backend language like just run. Javascript on the server and get really good at Javascript and never have to worry about switching syntaxes between ph p and javascript like even me like I've used javascript and php in a number of other languages. And I know them pretty well. But sometimes I'm like how do I do this in php again or how do I do this in job like I know how to do it I don't know what the syntactic sugar or you know I'm saying and when you're switching context like that all the time it can be It can be a little irritating sometimes.
Ryan: Ah, right right.
Ryan: But isn't the hard work knowing how to break the problem down and approach it not necessarily how to do it in XY or z.
Andrew: I would agree that that is the hard work or that is the the skill that it it is really good for you to get good at but still, it's something you encounter on a daily basis that you know it can be kind of annoying and I could see how it could be really appealing. Just spend all your time getting really good at this one language and just never have to deal with that. Yeah yeah, so Ryan one other thing I wanted to talk to you about was all inclusive resorts so you and I had talked about. You were interested in going on vacation and you wanted to go to an all-inclusive resort and as usual I had an opinion on that and I said oh man like ah do you really want to go to an all-inclusive resort and so. From your perspective tell us why you were interested in going to an all-inclusive resort.
Ryan: Sure, Um, because there's no work involved in in anything related to that vacation you get on a plane or or drive if you're within driving distance of something something and then you just show up and. All the food is. It's basically a cruise except like less gross than a cruise everything is there. You don't have to worry about food. Um, if you drink you don't have to worry about drink you you don't have to have any any of those worries and you can just literally sit. Yeah and you can just sit and relax. Um.
Andrew: The is gotta have your wristband on you get your wristband on. Yeah yeah.
Ryan: I Like different types of vacations I Really really like and haven't done it a long time just one of those we have unlimited time to be at the beach pull side just sitting and not doing anything and maybe somebody will bring ah bring us food and and drink.
Andrew: So you want to be served like a Roman emperor on your vacation. You want to sit there and bring me peeled grapes.
Ryan: To our chair I No I mean oh I Just you know like I just sometimes you just want to like do something different I do enjoy adventure-ish you know vacations or.
Andrew: You? Yeah yeah, so.
Ryan: Visiting Family vacations. There's different types but like the true like disconnect like I don't even want to open a laptop or do anything I just sit around and hang out and the reason is is because for me at least it takes probably anywhere between 3 Five days for my brain to truly like wind down until I can start to disconnect and kind of free up some of the space that's been occupied by stress and projects and that chatter that you have going on kind of that narrative of going on your head the whole time.
Andrew: Yep.
Andrew: Yep yep.
Ryan: It takes a long time for me for that to calm down and I can't do that if I if I'm always you know my brain's always being stimulated by this thing or that thing and that's and that's kind of when you're just sitting around not doing anything reading like reading for me is like the ultimate wind down activity.
Andrew: And and that makes that makes total sense to me because I remember I went on a trip a long time ago and it was on a live aboard boat.
Ryan: Sounds a good way. Good way to vomit every day but go ahead, you get used to it I guess.
Andrew: In Papua new guinea like in that kind of area of the south pacific area. You? Well you get you get used to it. It. It didn't didn't really bother me. It was it. It was a diving trip. So I've been an avid diver for a long time I haven't gone actually diving really much since I had kids but I used to do it quite often and I remember going on the trip. And I was like oh my god what am I gonna do what am I gonna do I'm gonna be so bored. You know I'm just gonna be sitting on this boat and like you said it took a couple of days to to switch off and wind down all that kind of stuff and the reason why I'm bringing up this topic in general is kind of getting back to what we're talking about for running is. Vacations are sort of like a large version of running in that there. There's something that in a an extended period of time takes you out of your day-to-day stuff whereas the the running or other activities like that are just kind of like ah a small segue out of your normal world. Vacations are sort of a bigger version of that right? and I think it's important to do that as well. You know to really take your sort ah out of it anyway, back to the boat. So after a couple of days I was actually yeah I was totally relaxed like everything was good. And I had this weird feeling though because I was so connected and I was so involved in reading the news and what was going on in the world I felt like I was missing everything and I was on this vote for a month I think it was like it was pretty pretty long period of time we did have some port stops so it wasn't just you know, but it was it was amazing. Amazing vacation.
Ryan: Oh yeah.
Andrew: And when I got back I still had this little bit of feeling like I missed out on something I turned on the Tv and it was just the same b s the same bullshit was going on now as when I left and I'm like you know what I missed absolutely nothing. But I mean it really did I really missed nothing and it was. It was all good. It was all.
Ryan: That's true, true.
Andrew: Kind of in my head in terms of the all inclusive resorts I have been on vacations like that before I tend not to like them and the reason I tend not to like them is very specific. So if I if I'm traveling to another country I think going to an all-inclusive resort is a terrible way to do it. And I'm going to explain why? So if you're going to another country the whole point of that at least to me is to look at other cultures see how they live experience something different than your own and that's a whole point in my mind of of going to these places. If you go to an all-inclusive resort. It doesn't matter where it is. It could be. It could be in Barbados. It could be in the the cayman islands it could be in Florida it could be anywhere and it's going to be the same damn thing. It's going to be a hotel with a pool with a buffet and a beach and you know. It. It makes no difference where you are. So if you're going to bother to go out of the country to go to a ah different place I feel like I don't know I just wouldn't want to do that does that make sense.
Ryan: That makes complete sense. Um, it's like going. It's like so I think you you and I are both Marriott ah customers stayed a lot of marriotts but it's like going and staying at a Marriott somewhere I actually tried not to do that like in a place I've never been. That's.
Andrew: So if you're good.
Ryan: Otherwise unique because then you're basically you're staying in a hotel that looks like any other hotel in the us I agree. Um perhaps the solution is instead of booking a one week vacation in that location I book 3 and 1 of them is spent.
Andrew: Yeah.
Ryan: At the all-inclusive and the other 2 are spent being having a little bit more cultural experience and.
Andrew: Yeah, and again, you know what works for me is not what works for other people I'm just vocalizing my reasoning on these things if you went to an all-inclusive somewhere and the whole point was you just wanted to get away like a spa kind of deal.
Ryan: Yeah.
Andrew: To go to a nice one. That's you know in Florida somewhere not that far from you don't spend all the time and money and just go somewhere where you can do just that and don't have the veneer of oh we're going to this exotic country because you're not like you're you're going to a hotel that could be anywhere you know.
Ryan: So. Right.
Andrew: And there definitely are different ways of being a tourist and it also changes over time like now that I have kids I you know change the kind of vacation because I think about things that I would normally like to do and my oh my god that would be absolutely like hell on wheels with the kids like I'm not gonna try to do that. But. Like a vacation I did a long time ago I really enjoyed is my brother and I flew to Costa Rica and we had no plans we were there for a month. We had no plans all we had was like a travel book and my brother speaks fluent spanish because he lived in Madrid for over 10 years and we just kind of talked to talk to people. And traveled around and went to places that people said were cool and we had no plans to do anything and I just love that man I thought that was really really cool now to try to do that with kids now would be horrendous very likely depending on the age of the kids because they'd be their own boarded. You know I don't want to they they won't appreciate the same things necessarily.
Ryan: Yeah, and the lack of structure of the day-to day.
Andrew: You know.
Andrew: Yeah, like last summer I think it was last summer we went down to New York city and we went to the natural history museum and that kind of thing and one of my kids was very into it and was checking everything out and the other was just and. Absolute nightmare like just absolutely like if you're in a very small pool. He was the one that was just peeing in it constantly. You know what I mean and it made me just not want to do that so it depends on your your family situation and kind of what you're doing I just you know.
Ryan: Yeah.
Andrew: Don't blame you for wanting to go to an all-inclusive resort I just was down in in Texas and I I went in and a passing by the gym I saw that they had a spa there and I was like oh why not? So I signed up for get this I got a a full-on massage I got a facial done Ryan like I did all these things. Oh.
Ryan: I Can tell I can tell.
Andrew: Yeah, and and it was awesome like it was a lot of fun. It was very relaxing but I wouldn't I would never fly to somewhere interesting and go to an all-inclusive resort at least interesting to me because that's what I get out of traveling but now I want to segue this.
Ryan: And.
Andrew: We've heard about developers that are designer devs right? I Want to coin a new term right? The new term is the tourist dev. Okay and I want to preface this by I Love being a tourist I Really do like I love visiting cities and different places in the world in different cultures.
Ryan: All right.
Andrew: I do my best to learn some of the language when I go there and to not stay at just the the typical place and you know I've stayed in hostels I go go all over the place and it's kind of similar for development I enjoy being a little bit of a development tourist like when some shiny new thing comes out I get excited and I want to check it out. But we think we've all seen on Twitter the tourrus dev and it's the person that they stay in all inclusive resorts exclusively. They're constantly traveling the development world staying in whatever the new all-inclusive resort is you know like whatever new technology comes out. They're all spouting out about it for a very long time. And then you don't hear from them for a week and then there's another shiny thing that they're talking about my term that I'm coining is the tourist dev have you ever seen what I'm talking about on tech Twitter.
Ryan: I I have I have I don't spend a ton of time on Twitter um, but I have I know what you're talking about and I think in general, it's good to get to sort of be up to speed I think that's what you're good at is just. Kind of surveying the landscape of what's new. What's out there. But um I don't think it's so great to go to like jump in and go deep on everything you have to have some like measure of restraint you have to pick oh like um, that's not interesting, but that doesn't apply to me right now. So I'm gonna put that on um on the back burner. That actually happened to me in the fall when the next three beta came out I started working with it working with it and then I realized like oh this isn't ready back then and so I just put it on the backburn rather than spinning my wheels on stuff that was you know where they were still working out bugs. Um.
Andrew: So.
Ryan: But there was a lot of heat around it at the time and then it it kind of dissipated a little bit. Um, but yeah and I know what you're talking I Know what you're talking about for sure right.
Andrew: I yep.
Andrew: I and again I love being a tourist whether it is a traveling tourist or a tech tourist where I'm constantly checking out new stuff. But as I say it's a very different thing to vacation somewhere than it is to live there and I just want to caution people. You'll see. Tourist devs on Twitter that are constantly hopping from 1 thing to another and there is no way in this world that they have spent any reasonable amount of time with the the technology dezure to be able to actually live with it.
Ryan: Right.
Andrew: They're really just kind of like tourists going to all inclusive resorts everywhere where they're traveling to somewhere just because of the name they want to be able to say I've been to Jamaica hashtag Jamaica you know without getting out and seeing what it's really like you know what? I mean like I think there's an analogy there.
Ryan: 3
Ryan: Yeah, yeah I think there is um I'm trying not to like be too critical of people that do it. Um because I think that it it could be a lack of you.
Andrew: Sir.
Ryan: Ah, lack of focus that could have other underlying reasons and I think that is is your right to caution people to not think that that's normal to do that because if anything we should all technology Movers moves really quickly but it doesn't move if you don't go on social media.
Andrew: Sir.
Ryan: And just generally try to get good at the part of your craft that you work on it actually moves fairly slowly. Um, and if if you invest in that slow work and that slow progress and don't feel like you have to jump from 1 thing to the next like you know we've all seen people who just maybe they're not.
Andrew: Yep I.
Ryan: They don't like ah publicly announce like their their developer tourist activities but you see at times times where they where they jump from 1 thing to the next you're like well like how about just you know going deeper on you know, getting good at 1 thing and then you know and you can learn so much more that way because you could actually learn how to be a better.
Andrew: Right.
Ryan: Developer You can learn how to be a better designer. Um, if you're not jumping from one design tool to the next or you know always migrating your personal blog to the next you know, hotness and stuff. Um I say that with the risk of of being accused of that because I do training So I do actually try to.
Andrew: And again I don't want to be so.
Ryan: Show people new things all the time but right.
Andrew: And to an extent you have to do that right? I mean it. It makes sense that you would have to be the one that surveys the landscape and and tries to come up with with training on this type of thing I guess and I don't want to crap on anyone because I think the enthusiasm. Fantastic, right? If 1 of the reasons why you're constantly checking out The new thing is just your super enthusiastic about technology then then great all I'm saying is be aware of this when you're on social media. Be aware that a lot of developer Twitter or developer other social media sources.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: There's an Instagram filter on this stuff Ryan you know what I'm saying like there is this filter that the person there's just no way that you're ever going to be extremely good at anything if you're constantly hopping from 1 thing to another right.
Ryan: Orderly.
Ryan: Yeah I I agree. Um and I don't know if if you're just trying to to like goad me into some sort of like Anti-social media rant. But I'm I'm getting pretty close.
Andrew: Ryan we're just having a conversation so wherever wherever you want to take it. You can take it I don't think there's anything.
Ryan: Ah, ah, in general I will just say this in general I will say that more people need to spend less time on social media. It is not the real world. It tends to be I Give you go talk to your neighbors they're they're not um.
Andrew: I yeah.
Ryan: Bouting off about the same things you read on social media. They're actually more concerned about like the slow life of what's just happening around them and I would encourage people to and I think it's the same thing with developer. Um, you know social Twitter or social media. It's much different than what people were working on. Most people were just.
Andrew: Yeah, right.
Ryan: Working with the same tools. They may have been working with for the last 3 or 4 years and they're trying to get really good at them and those tools are still completely fine. So.
Andrew: I and I feel like and I feel like I could be accused of being somewhat hypocritical in talking about this because I do check out lots of new technologies and things that are going on whether it's you know, vet or party town or. Nuxt or view or yet it and svelte or any any of these things but 1 of the things that I try to do is I try to survey the landscape and then I I try to pick something that I think is going to have value for me and then what happens Ryan it's kind of costly for me because then I kind of disappear down a rabbit hole. You you know, whatever it is and I try to get a little in depth with the thing to see you know hey is this really something that is going to be beneficial to me and then I try to actually use it for something practical. It doesn't always pan out. You know sometimes I'll I'll get down a little bit down that rabbit hole and be like ah you know. This isn't it but it is something that I try to do is get a little bit in depth on some of these things like I am using the stuff that I talk about on production and yeah.
Ryan: You right? You're not just tweeting about it.
Andrew: Well I just want to caution and look by no means am I trying to say that I'm an an expert on these things either. We're all always learning all I'm trying to say is just as you don't want to measure your looks or your value based on people's highly filtered Instagram pictures.
Ryan: Right? so.
Andrew: You also don't want to measure your value as a developer based on tourrus devs that are constantly tweeting about the new technology and and what do you mean? you're not using coffee script. You know to rewind eight years ago ah you know I'm saying like just I don't know keep keep that in mind.
Ryan: Right? Yep, right.
Ryan: So What you're working on right now is okay and if you identify as a frontend developer and you're mainly converting designs into um, you know, modern Html Css It's a perfectly good skill. I I think.
Andrew: Spend your time where you bring the value right? and with what interests you you know and 1 one of the things that I am going to kind of preach about though is if you are a developer and publish your work open source your work.
Ryan: I agreed.
Andrew: You know, let other people take a look at it contribute to existing open source projects if you can try not to be intimidated. A lot of the times people would love to have your contribution even if it's just an idea even if it's just fixing the grammar and I think it makes everyone better.
Ryan: Yeah.
Andrew: When you contribute to some of these open source projects rather than I've seen it happen with a lot of things that I put out so I'll put out something and someone will be like oh this thing is great and they'll they'll make their own copy of it and they will modify it.
Ryan: So.
Andrew: And this is all great like it's all out there so you can use it and learn it and do whatever you want with it and then they'll tell me you know how much better they made it but they'll never contribute anything back. You know they'll never say hey you know this is ah a way that I found out to do something cool. Let me do a pull request and then everyone benefits.
Ryan: Right.
Andrew: You know because I'm I'm far from an expert in a lot of these things. So It's great when I get a pull request from somebody for one of the projects that I'm working on like I Absolutely love It. So I would like to encourage people to if you benefit from open source software if you use projects that other people have created.. It's great If you say thank you like that's nice, but the the greater good for everybody and for yourself I will say because I think that you will grow by having to formalize a contribution to some of these things I think everyone benefits if you're able to contribute back to.
Ryan: And I agree and um I wanted to ask you because I don't do that enough but I want to ask you if if you did a lot of that before you got into web development or if that's more something that you did since you started web development.
Andrew: No, not really and this comes from an an old school development point of view back in the day I must sound like a really old man now Ryan back in the day your source code was your secret sauce.
Ryan: To put on the country music don't down or now right.
Andrew: It was the stuff that you kept under lock and key and you didn't want anyone to see it because it was your competitive advantage or whatever and that really was the mentality and it wasn't just me. There were lots of people that kind of had that opinion as well where there was some distrust. Open source and I think we've gotten far beyond that because it's pretty clear that lots and lots of eyes will make things Better. You know people Nobody's perfect other people will spot bugs or have use cases that you would never Encounter. So I think we're we're past that part of it. The part that I think some people get hung up on. Is one not wanting to look silly by publishing something that they don't think is is quite there yet and the other is just being I don't know just a little intimidated about contributing back to something or maybe not realizing how much benefit there really would be. If they contributed back towards something.
Ryan: Yeah, and I think that you make a good point about the the growth and the learning experience of doing that because you can get good feedback on like if if it's code you get good feedback on your code and if they're asking for an improvement in it. You could actually learn a lot. It's like almost like of.
Andrew: Yeah.
Ryan: And easy way to get some basic code like reviewed by a peer.
Andrew: And I fully understand the idea that well you know I don't know if this thing is the best. So I don't really want to publish it or I'm not really sure if they would want this pull request Even if I did it my answer to that would be that just try it. Put something out there. You may find that maybe no one looks at it. You know, maybe just your project just nobody looks at it but no big deal at least you went through the step of putting it out there but you may also find that other people will be looking at it and even if your code isn't perfect because no code. Is Perfect. You may grow as a developer because other people will be like hey you know this is how you could do this better and you you see their pull request or their suggestions and you're like oh that's great and there you go you just got a mentorship like a little mini mentorship in in getting better at something.
Ryan: Right? And and Andrew I want to bring this all the way back around to running and your comment about now wanting to run in front of like you know you run by a chef not running run in front of your family ah is that. Tell people that are new to running sometimes people are really insecure about like running out in public or running with other people because they might not have like perfect form or or you know or you know look good. Whatever I'm using air quotes here look good when they run but the.
Andrew: I yeah.
Andrew: Oh I'm well beyond that Ryan I already know that I don't like it.
Ryan: The thing is and what I remind people is that um, no one is paying as much attention to you as you think they're paying attention to you. It's just not the case and I think the same thing is with code like you know people might look at your project but they're not looking at it with the critical eye that you are um so just keep that in mind.
Andrew: Very true.
Ryan: And I mean you and I put stuff out into the world all the time whether it's code or or video or audio and I'm sure we sound like you know asses sometimes but it's just it's just part of it and I'm I'm super cognizant of of that kind of stuff. But yeah, so.
Andrew: You? Oh yeah.
Ryan: Don't don't worry about it as much.
Andrew: And it it tends not to bother me because I'm already I already realized that I'm not perfect and I'm like I'm fine with that you know and we do live streams all the time I remember the one that that really got you flustered I think.
Ryan: Or the alpine Js yeah.
Andrew: We did one with with alpine going in there cold like neither one of us knew anything which to be honest with you probably wasn't the best because if we're trying to show people you know, whatever, but it was kind of fun to just explore it and and check it out, but it was also very clear. You know that we didn't really know what we're doing but you know that's fine.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: You know we're all we're all learning and the only reason I don't want to run in front of my family is because I got to live with them. You know I may I mean if I went running on the.
Ryan: I Grew up in a big family and I know that that family especially siblings. Are you know so they can be the meanest people sometimes so.
Andrew: It's not even the meanness I just know that I'm gonna get up there in the treadmill and like 1 of the kids is gonna go over and be like pokeking my belly the whole time and just stuff that I just I don't want to have to deal with you know what? I mean I just want to go and do my thing.
Ryan: Well, that's when you that's when you take away the ipad for three months I I don't know what the message is if it's wrong or right or just a message.
Andrew: And that seems like sending the wrong message Ryan I don't know I yeah, but that is 1 thing that I like about the decision that pixel and tonic made about their plugins which is that if you wanted a Krafcms plugin to be. In the plugin store. It had to be in a public git repo which I think is you know some developers at the time were kind of complaining about it I think that's a great decision though because I think that that has created a learning resource that makes it really easy for people to go check stuff out and let's be honest. It also would be real easy for them to just pull down your package and inspect the code anyway. So what's the difference at least have it on ah a platform where other people can contribute to it easily if they want to so.
Ryan: So right right.
Ryan: I agree.
Andrew: So you got anything else ryan.
Ryan: So the only other thing I wanted to wrap up with Andrew is I don't know if you when the last time is that you did like a screen recording on your mac or even right now if you look up to the right corner of your screen where you have. So we use Zencastr to record. Do you see a little orange or or ah like an orange dot or are you running Monterey.
Andrew: Yep.
Andrew: I I do not this operating system is big Sur actually on this computer.
Ryan: Okay, so those of us that are on Monterey so apple hast introduced for this is a mac os thing has introduced a lot of like security and general like user awareness features and 1 of them is that. Always know when your microphone or video camera's being accessed super important because you don't want to access install software that is using your mic or your camera without your knowledge bad but what they've added is in is this little orange or green dot.
Andrew: Right.
Ryan: And the top right? If you're in a browser is going to be in the top right of the screen. Um, and it's impossible to get rid of it natively like like without third party code the problem with this is that anytime you like I record videos screencasts as a job. That that little dot is on every screencast that I record unless I find a way to remove it and I think that there should be a way to opt out of a a series of opt out of like which apps can allow that to happen because I can say I trust this app I know it. And I even have them added as trusted in my system preferences and security. So there is a um, there is an app that.
Ryan: And I need to find it hang on.
Andrew: Are you talking about low Tech guys Yellow Dot you're welcome all right? So so cue it up as if you got it. So go ahead.
Ryan: Yes, thank you.
Ryan: So there's an app that called ah by the low techch guys and there's one called yellow dot that you can download and run they have the speaking of open source you can look at the source code on github and it it's it allows you. To pause the ah or or remove the little orange dot in the corner of your screen and they do. They do some sort of like hacky work aroundund to get it to work because it's it's it's like a system level thing in Mac Os but um if anyone's run into that and if you do recording even if it's a recording for like a client or you're doing like ah you know some sort of promo recording to show. Um, you know a portfolio work or something like that check it out so that's that's kind of like my little like mini rant is sometimes I feel like that. Mac Os is turning into um just a little bit too like high maintenance with some of the security stuff how many times have I had to hop on a like ah a Zoom call or or some other you know, ah Google hangout Google meet and it won't let me use my video camera unless I like. Restart the whole browser. So I know we're trying to balance security and safety and I actually agree with the you know letting me know when my camera's being used. It's the reason that there's a green led on my imac screen showing me, you know that my cameras.
Andrew: Yep.
Ryan: In use right Now. Um, but it's now they're actually permanently putting it permanently putting it on the screen and you can't even take it off So Yellow dot is the name of the app Http://lowtechgu.com/yellowdot. It's my rant I think my problems. Are pretty minor considering all the things in the world and.
Andrew: It's clear that Ryan is more interested in the benefit to him as opposed to the benefit of the public. So that's fine I understand that but that about wraps it up for another episode of the demo fm podcast if you enjoy the show make sure to subscribe tell a friend drops a review. We really appreciate it for the demo dot fm podcast I'm Andrew Welch thanks
Ryan: I'm and I'm Ryan Irewin
Andrew: And another podcast Ryan we're going to have to go into why you're okay, with elderly people getting scammed and just so you can have a clear recording.
Ryan: So can we actually drop that segment Can you cut that I don't know it didn't really seem to flow I feel like I and that point in the from everything else we're talking about. Okay, yeah.
Andrew: I Could why I.
Andrew: I I'll listen to it if it's really bad I'll get rid of but otherwise I'll keep it in I don't think I don't think it's probably too bad as the se way I yeah not stopping the recording I'll tell you about it real quick I hit.
Ryan: Oh what was the docker composed thing. Oh God that again is.