devMode.fm // Standup - "Lookin' for Love in all the Wrong Places"

Episode 122 / 2021.11.29

Standup — “Lookin’ for Love in all the Wrong Places”

Andrew Welch, Ryan Irelan

#standup #job #web3

Ryan Irelan & Andrew record another devMode standup where we discuss the idea that training materials teach you how to do a thing, but that’s only part of the equation.

Studies have shown that people who love their jobs tend to do better work than those who don’t. So how do we learn to love our jobs, or do we just need to find a job that fits us better? We talk about it in-depth, and how loving a thing can be a skill you apply, and thus do better work!

We also talk about Web 3.0, Crypto, NFTs, the Star Registry, and how humans are weird about what they value.

We go on to discuss Time-Block Planning, an obscure Docker issue that caused problems for Andrew & Ryan, Belle Delphine’s bath water, as well as the Oculus Quest 2 and how awesome it is!

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Andrew: Welcome to devmo fm a podcast dedicated to the tools techniques and technologies used in modern web development I'm andrew weltch from and ny studio 1 7 joining me is my friend ryan ireland who bathes in cold rain barrels every morning. Ah, you doing right.

Ryan: Hi Andrew I'm doing Well thank you? How are you.

Andrew: I'm doing awesome So you get a nice little scrub a dub in your rain barrrow this morning.

Ryan: Ah, no.

Andrew: You there, you're gonna no sell me all right? all right? So so Ryan I Want to introduce a new thing that it may be a new segment or maybe just a onetime thing I don't know but something that has long interested me is.

Ryan: Ah I'm not taking the bait. Okay.

Andrew: Ah, etymology Do you know what? that is not to be confused with entomology etymology. Yes, so it's essentially word origins or word or phrase origins right? I always found them to be kind of interesting.

Ryan: Etymology like the etymology of a word I'm I'm very familiar. Well I mean I will let me take me I'm familiar let me take away very only because I studied a foreign language.

Andrew: Oh You're very familiar you you want me to test you on some or. Yeah I Well anyway, it's something I've always been interested in and I think it might be fun to just cover 1 So and the other thing is my wife.

Ryan: So you kind of built into.

Andrew: Is originally from another country. She speaks English very well. But there' are certain phrases and idioms and things like that that she's just like why do people say that and yeah, well both of our wives identify as Germans So we're we're good. We're we're Soul brothers in that regard. Um.

Ryan: Yeah, we have the same thing at at home because my wife is also from a different country. Yeah.

Andrew: But the thing is occasionally she'll be like well why do people say that and I'm like I have no idea so 1 of the the phrases that I used a little while ago was dead as a doornail right? and she's like well what does that mean you know do you have any guesses on what it might be.

Ryan: E.

Ryan: Well dead as a door nail I Know what it means mean what it means it doesn't move. It's not moving. It's It's basically beyond ever being animated with life again is that right.

Andrew: We know what it means First of all so what it means is like what does it mean.

Andrew: Yeah, unequivocally deceased as opposed to you know I guess sort of dead I don't know I think dead is dead. But anyway it's right exactly. So.

Ryan: Right. So What is a doornail.

Andrew: Had no idea though it was 1 of those things that you just say and you're like well yeah I have no idea why I say this thing but I say it and it sounds right and I know what it means when it says it but it makes total sense that somebody else coming from. You know, a different background would have no clue like as you said they wouldn't know what a doornail is first of all. And then why would you use that in comparison to something that's dead right? I did so I looked it up I do this all the time I look them up to see what's going on with it and apparently it comes from the manner of securing doornails. This is you know back in. Ah.

Ryan: Did you look it up. So.

Andrew: The eighteen hundreds when you know they didn't have mass production nails like we do now they were just kind of like wesies that they would put in there and apparently the way that doornails were secured is they hammered them into into the door by clenching them and clenching them is the practice of you bend over the protruding part of the nail and he bang it in.

Ryan: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: And because of that that nail can never be used again because it's been distorted out of shape and it's then deader than a doornail and can never be reused. So.

Ryan: Um, that makes sense and you so I grew up in the ah in the northeast in 1 of the original thirteen colonies and so you see a lot of old structures. And that actually is really common if you if I don't know if you've ever renovated an old building or watched a tv show where they renovate old buildings like on this old house or something if they're in Boston and they renovate a really old house. They actually you'll actually see that where the nails look like because right because these days if you see a nail that's been bent over it where the.

Andrew: Yeah.

Ryan: Top end has been bent and hammered into the wood. It looks like someone that wasn't skilled at hammering a nail doing it. But that's I guess that was the common back then because you didn't have the flat tops like we do know that's cool.

Andrew: That right? I yeah that was just the only way to do it anyway. I thought that was kind of interesting. Yeah and that you know maybe we'll we'll do this every now and again and if you want to bring a word, bring a word. You know we'll see we'll see how it goes.

Ryan: Yeah, so yeah, that's that's a good 1 I will say that the I was actually telling my daughter about this when I was in high school getting ready for s sats or ac ts the the standardized testing our english teacher. My sophomore year of high school made us learn word parts and this is like the Latin parts of words that would then help us determine the definition and it also is related to etymology and then you start to you start to be able to come up with the definition of. Any word as long as you can identify its word parts. You can basically determine from a list of definitions which 1 is correct so good. Good skill. Oh.

Andrew: I yeah and I actually studied Latin so I I have a kind of background in that as well. It don't ask me why I was just a weirdo didn't take french spanish or russian or anything like that I took a latin and I did take a dead language but it was something that would be useful if you wanted to be a doctor or a lawyer. But.

Ryan: You took a dead language that sounds great. Yeah.

Andrew: I didn't want to be either. So I don't I don't know I don't get it. Um.

Ryan: You also write code in emacs throw throwing a little shade to the emacs crowd.

Andrew: Thats it' a very rude rh all right? So I wanted to get into a couple of things so you run a training site allegedly called kraquest plug plug you're you're welcome. Um, and you teach people how to do.

Ryan: Allegedly, yes.

Andrew: Various things right? So you'll you'll say this is how to do x this is how to do y and I would imagine people probably subscribe for a few reasons 1 is they want to know how to do x right? They have a specific need. They need to solve it and they need to do that and other people might be doing it just to kind of keep their. Mind expanded to keep on the pulse of you know what's going on and and new possibilities and all that kind of stuff so you're teaching people how to do this stuff my question to you is how do you learn? How to love the work that you're doing because it's pretty obvious that we spend a huge part of our day. Working a huge part of our lives working and studies have shown that people do a better job when they enjoy their work in 1 way or another do you think that this is something that you can train yourself to do are there strategies that you can use to try to love your work more or find your work. More rewarding or is it a matter of you just have to find the kind of work that you do find rewarding you see what I'm saying like can you adapt yourself to enjoy the work that you're doing more or is it something that you have to find work that adapts to you? What do you think.

Ryan: Can I say it's both.

Andrew: You Yeah sure. Well, what are some strategies for how you could start to learn to love your work then.

Ryan: Um, Gosh I can only speak what it is like for me and 1 of the things that I get a lot of enjoyment from with my work is the ability to. Ah, research and learn something new as I'm trying to come up with ah a way to teach something so kind of dig in figure things out So It's always like a It's always a quest not to use same word as my site but it's you're shake in your head. It's always a quest.

Andrew: Oh my god.

Ryan: To to learn something new and that's where the joy comes from me if I was doing a job where I was doing the same thing over and over every day I wouldn't have that same joy. That being said I think you can also find joy in that type of work I just.

Andrew: Well what about the phrase that there's no such thing as boring things. Only boring people in other words, it's not necessarily the thing itself. It's your interpretation of it or it's your interpretation of it or it's the way that you perceive it or that type of thing I mean I was watching a video.

Ryan: I Don't know that I can but.

Andrew: And the guy was showing what he does for a job which is he's a lumber inspector and he's literally standing on an assembly line and cut lumber is going by and he flips it over and inspects it and that's what he does all day and he said he loves his job.

Ryan: So.

Andrew: Is that a matter of you have to be a particular type of person to love that or has he developed some kind of strategy for being able to enjoy that kind of work that you and I might say that's kind of boring.

Ryan: Gosh That's hard I would say that he probably has developed a strategy to enjoy that type of work and to me that shows like a lot of I Want to say like emotional maturity but there's ah to where. You can be content with your life where you don't always need like something more and more and more and more where that person Perhaps he actually really does enjoy making sure that no bad pieces of lumber make their way out very important job right in terms of the output of. Whatever the you know the Mill does but he also might have a lot more rewarding parts of his life that are outside of his job especially in the knowledge you know workspace where we are. It seems like we've been kind of trained to expect. Get all of our fulfillment out of our jobs and I don't think that that always has to be the case. Yeah.

Andrew: No, that would be sad if that were the case but it would also be probably worse if we got no enjoyment out of our jobs right? because you're going to spend the majority of your day is either sleeping or working you know so you got to find some way to find enjoyment out of it.

Ryan: Right? Well I think that's part of the the great like resignation that's happening right now where after people have worked at home for a long time. They realize that the most rewarding part of their job might have been.

Andrew: I Can tell you that that. I.

Ryan: That in-person engagement they had with other people seeing other people being in the office and that was what the most fulfilling part of their their job. Not actually the work that they were doing and so when they're doing at home. They realize like Wow this is really terrible and not fulfilling at all. Um.

Andrew: I right? Well I can tell you that this is not something that I think about necessarily in terms of investing time in training myself to love what I do but in.

Ryan: I Would like to do something else now.

Andrew: Reflecting on it a little bit I think there are are a couple of things that I do that allow me to enjoy the work that I'm doing and I think 1 is just whatever it is I'm doing I like to take pride in what I'm doing not pride in a bad way. But just the satisfaction that you know you. You did a good job on the thing that you're doing no matter how big or how small that thing is making a bed. For instance, you know taking pride in that you you did a really nice you know hotel quality job on on making that bet we're we're talking like you know a caesar's resort quality not motel 6 right? so.

Ryan: M.

Andrew: And I think you can do that in in anything. Um, for instance when I was younger and even still today I used to do a decent amount of origami paper folding and 1 of the things that I learned from doing that is that how precise you are in the beginning drastically out. Affects how good the outcome is going to be because those initial folds kind of affect everything else and that sort of teaches you that hey these sometimes the little things matter. So I think that's 1 of the things that I I probably kind of do now I don't do that for everything.

Ryan: Yeah.

Andrew: I Mean there are some things that I'm just like all right good enough is best like it's fine. Just leave it the way it is but for things that I'm I'm working on I think I typically am trying to do that and when I see that the result is is good I get satisfaction out of that you know, no matter what the the job is and. It's I'm sure that if my job was not mind numbingly awful that that would be more difficult to do but you know for what it's worth.. That's 1 thing that I do another thing that I do that I think is kind of related to that is I used to play Sports I'm competitive I Love the. Aspect of competition and I think that drives me again to try to do a good job on the things that I'm doing not that I'm necessarily competing with a specific person almost like I'm competing with myself. You know I Want to make sure that past Andrew did a good job on this or that past Andrew or that. I'm improving as I'm going forward and I think that is something that I also get satisfaction out of that the kind of self competition aspect of it. That's something that drives me and I think the interesting thing to note here. Is that a lot of what is behind the stuff that I'm talking about is being honest with yourself in terms of understanding yourself and what motivates you you know like if you know that you're motivated by learning. For instance, you can build into the work that you're doing some amount of learning that comes along the way. Even if the job that you're asked to do is relatively cookie cutter there Probably always is some new little bit of technology or a technique or something that you can fold into it and try to use to to make it something that you enjoy doing is that something you find yourself doing or.

Ryan: Ah, yeah, totally I do I But in terms of like someone that has a I don't have like ah a monotonous job where I'm doing the same things over and over I mean I do it to some extent but not not in a way to where it it doesn't feel.

Andrew: Right.

Ryan: Filling but I will say if someone does have something like that where they are doing similar things day in and day out if if someone could optimize that work down to let's say twenty hours a week and then they have another 20 like they're still outputting. Same amount of stuff and they they're fulfilling their role and they have another 20 they can learn something new that actually help their role or help them. You know in a future role or something like that. That's where I think you can actually take a job that you might feel is mundane and make it interesting.

Andrew: I yeah I think 1 other thing that I do and I think this is just a kind of aspect of my personality. But I think it's developed into something that allows me to enjoy work a little bit more as I try to make things a little bit fun. You know 1 of the the first things that I was doing when I was coding was I was making games I was making kind of fun stuff and I actually remember this is back when I was still a teenager actually I would put song lyrics and stuff like his little hidden easter eggs and the stuff that I was building and everything. Because I was I was blasting the music and I was jamming out to it and I was enjoying myself while I was doing it and I tried to bring a sense of humor and a sense of fun to the stuff that I'm working on too.

Ryan: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: And I think that that allows me to enjoy it a little bit more now I realize that this could be a liability in some circles. You know you know why? Why is this guy on the conference call making a stupid joke. Yeah I get it. But I you know and you have to temper it based on the audience or whatever but I do try to make things a little bit fun for me. If possible. You know, either by interactions with other people. Um or just by doing something that I enjoy while I'm coding you know whether it's music or watching a movie or or that kind of thing. Do you do anything to try and make stuff fun for you or is that just something that I need.

Ryan: Um I think I probably need to make things more fun Sometimes I it's kind of interesting when it comes to my work I tend to be a little bit on the more serious side. Yeah um, but outside of that like at at home.

Andrew: No.

Ryan: Um, there's probably there could probably be a contest between me and my child as to who is the actual child in the house. Um.

Andrew: It right right? and and that childlike curiosity too right? and it just you know like I don't know and I do it with my kids in just mundane things as well. You know things that would otherwise be really boring you. You could have fun with it if you make a little game out of it. You know.

Ryan: Yeah, so.

Andrew: I Don't know it was just something I was thinking about because we have lots and lots of training materials that tell us you know how to do this and how to do that and everyone knows that you do a better job at what you're doing when you are enjoying what you're doing or you find fulfilling what you're doing. And so I was kind of pondering the question of well how can we? There must be strategies. There must be ways that we can make that happen and that almost seems like half of the equation. You know there's 1 thing is knowing how to do it and the other part is enjoying it and then you're probably going to do a better job and you're not going to feel miserable.

Ryan: Yeah.

Ryan: And maybe we should change the language. Ah I don't like to change language. But maybe we should change instead of finding something fulfilling. You should make it fulfilling like it's like you put the the action is on you rather than being passive.

Andrew: Yes, yeah.

Andrew: You yeah.

Ryan: You Know't find it fulfilling you. You make it fulfilling and there's all sorts of ways of doing that especially in the like we're so fortunate to do the type of and everybody that's listens to this the type of work that we do I'd be hard pressed to find ah someone that listens to this is works in the samery that couldn't. Find or or make their work fulfilling.

Andrew: I yeah I just think it's something that maybe it could be a K craft quest video I don't know but you know a way to not just know how to do the thing but a way to make your work more fulfilling and you know it might be dicey because it will be different for every person. But I just find it an interesting topic because I almost think that it's it's probably not fifty percent of the equation in terms of doing good work. But I do think it is a significant portion and I don't think people pay that much attention to that or you know watch training videos. They'll watch them on. You know how to use graphql but they're not going to watch them on. You know how to enjoy learning something new or how to enjoy a mundane task or that type of thing you know.

Ryan: Yeah I Wonder if if ah, an entry into that would be trying to teach something like an example project would be actually would be something very silly versus something.

Andrew: Yeah.

Ryan: You know more straight ways. That's very practical like my examples are always very practical because I I want to convey how you can take what you're learning and apply it in a real world situation and typically those are very practical situations.

Andrew: And it's funny. You should mention that because as soon as you said that I immediately thought of Wes Boss who is someone who has been very successful and and what he teaches and he's always integrating something fun in his examples like you'll have you know.

Ryan: Yeah, exactly.

Ryan: E 6

Andrew: Ordering pizza and he'll be very opinionated on what toppings can go on a pizza or he'll be Putting. You know the names of his kids and his dogs and that kind of stuff into the you know he's obviously making it a little bit personal. A little bit more fun and a little bit approachable and it it seems to me that. Probably is something that he's doing I don't know whether it's subconsciously. It's just his personality or he's doing it on purpose but it seems like he's doing exactly that.

Ryan: Um, yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. Um I agree I like his his stuff a lot. Ah yeah, it's interesting. That's all I have to say.

Andrew: so so I had a couple other things that I wanted to speak about so 1 of the things that I wanted to bring up is just a really small annoying bug that we both ran into with docker compose and.

Ryan: Oh yeah.

Andrew: So Apparently they came out with an updated version of Docker for the Mac and I didn't know why because I hadn't dug into it yet. But the names of the containers were different So There's a separator character that it would put in there. It would put the name of the project dash the name of the service. Dash the name or the instance of the container like a number a serial number and those were underscores and then I woke up 1 day and I spun up my containers and they had dashes in them and I'm like well what the hell what? what is going on here.

Ryan: As did I yeah.

Andrew: And you know I I did my due diligence I looked in the change log I didn't see anything about you know dashes to underscores or anything like that and I just sort of shrugged and I'm like okay um.

Ryan: Did the same. Yep.

Andrew: I Guess I'll update my make files so that it can find these containers again. So I just changed the underscores to dashes and I went about my day and then you contacted me and what did you say to me ryan.

Ryan: Um, I said Andrew What the hell is wrong with your software. No, that's what I was.

Andrew: I Yeah ah let me let me reinterpret that for you you said Andrew that wonderful learning resource that you provided for free that I am leveraging to do my day job and I am very appreciative of and I am very appreciative of is for some reason not working. Okay.

Ryan: Ah, yes. Yeah I I So I actually did not contact you immediately when I found this because this is ah this is a lesson and this is also about why.

Andrew: Do you have do you have free time or can I pay you consulting to try and help me with this oh wait. No, that's exactly not how you put it? No, it's not.

Ryan: I Think my job is fun and interesting is I learned a lot in the whole process I started digging into your your make file into the Docker compose file into of the other Docker files because I was trying to figure out is there I saw your commit where you changed when you're setting of a variable there. You.

Andrew: You Yeah right.

Ryan: Or a constant or whatever it is ah in the make file I think it was in the make file where you change the underscores to dashes for the container names and I was like okay like is there something else that I'm missing like why would this it was working on some of my stuff.

Andrew: Yep.

Andrew: And right and then I was at.

Ryan: But not on others so I was able to I was able to dig in and actually become even more familiar with how it's all put together. So there's a learning experience there I wanted to make sure I did my due diligence first before I contacted you but then I just was out I just couldn't figure it out anymore. I was like ah is this is this just the me thing or is andrew facing this too.

Andrew: And then what I said to you was you're crazy. They they changed that in some version of docker. It's not. It's not underscores anymore. It's now dashes and then me being you know the compulsive person I don't that compulsive is not the right word me being the thorough person that I am.

Ryan: Yep.

Ryan: Here.

Andrew: I span it up I spun it up locally myself and it changed back to underscores and I'm like what the hell What? what is going on here and again I looked in the logs and there's nothing about changing it anywhere and so I did a little research and what I found out is.

Ryan: Yeah, ah.

Andrew: What they did is they changed from the docker compose version 1 api which apparently was in python to the docker compose 2 api which is now written in go and 1 of the changes that they made is the separator character was now a dash and not an underscore. Okay. That explains why I had to change it once apparently a bunch of people were like holy crap. My stuff is broken so in a in a next version what they did is they rolled the change back. So it's going back to using the composer. Ah v 1 api.

Ryan: Understand if we so yeah.

Andrew: Sorry, the Docker Compose V 1 api and then they made it an option. So now. It's in preferences so you can go into preferences and you can turn this thing on and I realize for most people this is the most boring topic on the planet you know Docker you know,? whatever, but it's 1 of those obscure little bugs that it was just. Baffling to me and I guess what I found a little bit bothersome was they said in the change log I don't even know if they said in the change log that they were using Docker Compose V 2 I don't even know if they mention that but they certainly didn't.

Ryan: Yeah.

Andrew: Mention or test for any of the ramifications of this which is a ah breaking change. You know.

Ryan: Yeah, and I discovered it in the middle of recording a training video on Migrations and I went to run make craft migrate up and that.

Andrew: So nice. Nice.

Ryan: So you have a conditional at the top of the make file where you say if you check for the names of the containers if they're already there. You don't spin them up right? Then you just continue on it kept it kept spinning up like shutting down and then spinning up new containers because it that conditional didn't pass. Um.

Andrew: Right? right? yep.

Andrew: You right? right.

Ryan: So I was like drive me crazy and I could have just changed the like my local copy of the make file just to use the underscores that just use the you know back again. But yeah and that would have been fine. It just wouldn't have been the permanent fix. Um.

Andrew: Right.

Ryan: But anyway, but yeah I mean it stopped me in my track. So it's kind of it's disruptive and I saw people in in a github thread that were complaining about it just saying like whoa whoa. What's this like this is like a major breaking change. You just kind of like suddenly dropped in into a release.

Andrew: It right? that and that's the lesson here. So I'm not talking about this just to complain about it or you know to show how to track it down and figure out what's going on. It's more just about if you're making breaking changes. You should be very clear in your change log or in your release notes or in something that this breaking change is happening and it didn't happen in a major version either. It was in a in a minor well not a minor. Yeah minor release is where it was broken.

Ryan: Yeah. It was a point point release right? It wasn't.

Andrew: I Don't know honestly it it was at least just a point release. It might have been a point point I don't know I don't know but switching the whole compose api that you're using I mean I realized that in theory probably they were trying to swap out something that was compatible with the other thing but you know.

Ryan: Yeah.

Andrew: This is a lesson for us ryan so I'm actually in the middle of doing some stuff I just released a big update to seomatic that graphql's all the things. So from the beginning from day 1 when graphql launched.

Ryan: Oh.

Andrew: Pretty sure I had it ready very soon after there's been a graphql api for seomatic. However, that didn't include things like site maps and it didn't include things like front-end templates like robots text and a couple of other minor things and I spent a bunch of time. Refactoring all of that so that there's a full graphql api for everything and the reason that matters is if you're doing a headless cms it's a lot more convenient to just be able to do everything via graphql. You know, rather than. Trying to curl down the the craft instance which you know it might not even be publicly accessible all that kind of stuff much easier if they can get at everything via graphql now for some of these things it amounts to just a ah key value where the value is the file contents and the key.

Ryan: Yeah.

Andrew: Is the file name but still just the fact that you can keep it all in 1 graphql workflow is really useful for people that are doing that thing rather than saying well what you should do is set up curl and save it up to a file and include that in your build artifacts and all that kind of stuff so that's.

Ryan: Yeah, I'm looking at the the the issue the feature request from your brother in-law I won't know that you made him wait 2 years to have that fulfilled I just mess with you? yeah.

Andrew: I Oh yeah.

Andrew: So well understand first of all a feature request is a feature request right? and these have to be prioritized right? I think bug fixes are more important and then honestly there were some other features that were more important too and the other thing is.

Ryan: Yeah.

Andrew: Had back Channel discussions with him and some other people and they had workarounds you know they just weren't as nicer as convenient, but this shows you I'm ah I'm gonna turn your negative into a positive rhyme. This shows you how diligent I am in going back and making sure that some of these things are end up getting taken care of and don't just go by the wayside.

Ryan: Right? right? right? right? I'm just messing with you. Okay.

Andrew: Okay, well let's not go too far. Um, with the reason I bring that up is in the process of doing those additional graphql Apis I figured out that the way that I did some of the earlier ones I wasn't.

Ryan: You're a good person.

Andrew: So happy with and I would rather make them more like this 1 but that would introduce a breaking change and I don't want to do that in a point release. So what I'm going to be doing is I'm going to be deprecating the current api. It's still going to work. But I'm going to be introducing the new just cleaner 1 and it's really just.

Ryan: Right.

Andrew: Cleaner from an implementation point of view and also from probably easier for people to get access to the stuff that's in there. But that's how you should probably try to do breaking changes if you can is deprecate the old way make people aware of it and introduce. The new way. And allow a transition period for people to adopt the thing you know and then when you issue a major release that's when you can kill off the deprecated Apis and I realize this is you know this is kind of library author 1 1 in terms of the stuff that you need to do. But. I Think it's useful to think about it. So.

Andrew: You do you have anything you would like to bring up ryan.

Ryan: Andrew I wanted to ask if you know what web 3 is.

Andrew: And I've heard of it something blockchain Blah Blah blah.

Ryan: So you know web 1 point zero that base is.

Andrew: I I know that all of these terms were things that they just slapped on something that kind of existed. But yeah, go ahead.

Ryan: Okay, so that's been there was there was essentially the first version of the web probably at least when I started working on it and we had web 2 point zero which is. When we started using like ajax and and all of that stuff would be web 2 point zero so instead of like hep which 1 gosh. Ah that seems like.

Andrew: And responsive design wasn't that kind of lumped in there with web 2 point zero responsive design wasn't that lumped in with web 2 point zero stuff.

Andrew: I I Just think there are a bunch of technologies that lots of people started adopting and they someone decided let's coin a phrase for all of these things you know.

Ryan: Web 2 point five. But maybe maybe.

Ryan: Yeah, so I think web it depends on who you're asking what web 2 point zero is to me web 2 point zero was was like ajax and more dynamic pages versus static html that just showed something things that you could interact with without a page refresh. Um, but some people think it's like when commerce was trusted online and and prominent. So. It just depends. Maybe they're all interrelated anyway, web 3 is the idea that we are going to have a ah. In practical sense and I'm not an expert on this. So if if you're listening you can email andrew at ny studio 1 of 7 dot com with any complaints. Ah, but is that web 3 is it is about the blockchain and in it like.

Andrew: Please please do not.

Ryan: Implementation sense. It would be running applications like on the blockchain. So like in ethereum you can actually install and run applications on the blockchain. The idea is that it's also um, it's it's decentralized. There's like in. Inherent or built in trust in it because it's in the blockchain is not just about cryptocurrencies or anything like that. Um I also see web 3 point zero as also including like more and maybe this is web. 2 point nine point Zero is more like edge hosted applications as well. Even though that's old technology that's still like servers somewhere. It's not based on the blockchain but we're not even there like we're not there yet where everybody is hosting things like you know distributed I mean big companies are. But not normal. People aren't hosting things on edge servers. So anyway, so what 3 point out it's it's where we're seeing a more mainstream less edge case implementation of blockchain technology.

Andrew: I I'll tell you.

Ryan: How interested are you and stuff like in in that kind of stuff.

Andrew: Well I'll tell you despite the fact that I literally threw millions and millions of dollars into a trash heap many years ago when I took my computer that I was mining bitcoin on my company network and ah you know just threw it out. Because ah, you know bitcoin is is never going to be a thing. So Oh my God Yeah, you have no idea I could own an island right? I'm not even kidding Well this was back when literally bitcoin was worth nothing.

Ryan: Are you serious? No oh my gosh.

Andrew: And you actually could mine it just on desktop computers. Especially a network of them and you also couldn't use it for anything so you know I was just like oh well,, that's Neat. You know, whatever. So despite the fact that there is that fresh wound that will never go away. A lot of the cryptocurrency stuff to me. It's very much based on speculation. In other words, Lots of people have made lots of money in crypto lots of people have also lost lots of money but it's really based on speculation and it's an insider's game in a lot of ways in terms of. People that are making money on it and look man I know some people I knew a guy that was a a poker player and heavy pot smoker like just a kind of always broke you know, just kind of casual kind of dude and he was going on and on about this bitcoin poker thing that some. Site had made him the the marketing rep for this bitcoin poker site and he got involved with it and everyone was like oh that's Cute. You know, whatever and they paid him in bitcoin and he was a true believer and he is. He is very rich right now right? He's very rich right? but.

Ryan: Um, yeah, it's a little bit of a lottery though. But yeah.

Andrew: But the crypto market at least currently is largely based on speculation still in terms of you have the bitcoin you have ethereum you have whatever coin you want and the value it has is based on what value other people ascribe to it and you're typically just. Holding onto It. You're not actually using it in day-to-day commerce for stuff now again you right right? Which is what it was supposed to be is ah you know freedom from the existing financial systems and stuff Now. This isn't me.

Ryan: Which is what the original dream was right is that it's actually a ah unit of commerce. Yeah, right right.

Andrew: Crapping on it because there are plenty of things that are pure speculation that people make tons of money on Derivatives markets stock market you know lots lots of these things and there are lots of other things that have value just because people think they have value my son asked me why is gold so valuable and I'm I'm like well. Because it's useful in some ways but mostly because it's shiny and easy to work with you know I mean and you know if you're selling your home. What is your home worth? Well, your home is worth what someone else is going to pay for it so there. There are lots of these things that the value is ascribed just by whether other people want it or not. The thing about it is especially things like nfts and nfts remind me of if you remember back in the day you used to be able to maybe you still can actually and nfts remind me of being able to buy your own star right? So if you remember that like you could buy your own star and you could name it.

Ryan: I Do remember that it.

Andrew: And you could give it as a gift to someone and what happens when you do that your ownership of that star as well as the name goes into a central registry aka a blockchain you know I mean it's the similar idea. It's a registry of stuff right.

Ryan: Yeah, it stars are also non-fungible right? I mean.

Andrew: Yeah,, let's hope well until they explode. Um, but the idea is that an nft means that you own this thing. It's saying you are the 1 that owns this thing but you don't actually own the thing just like you don't actually own the star when your name is ascribed to it. There's just a little something sitting in a registry somewhere that says you own this thing now again not to say that you couldn't potentially make tons of money from this especially when it's a fad and and people are jumping on board and wanting to buy it I think the highway is also going to be littered with people owning just the most ridiculous nfts that. They couldn't sell to save their life. You know because you know there's ah there was an image that sold for a whole lot of money as an nft but they didn't sell the image right? The person still owns the image who made it and all they have is something in a central registry that says you own this thing. You own this Nft token right? The the So It's kind of it really is kind of like owning your own star right in that. Yeah, okay, you own it. But you don't actually own the thing you just own the entry in the registry.

Ryan: This token? Yeah and you're the only 1 that can own it.

Andrew: That says you own this thing and humans are weird right in terms of the way we ascribe value So I'm certainly not sitting here saying that you know crypto is worthless and nfts are worthless I don't think that at all because I think people are. It's all going to depend on people's. Confidence and interest in the thing in terms of what value it's going to have and clearly bitcoin and some other cryptocurrencies or things that people have decided is a good thing to invest in and use as future Speculation. So I Do think these things can potentially have value. But it's also 1 of those things man where you know as soon as someone thinks that your nftt that points to a particular you know special edition shoe As soon as people are just like I don't want that it becomes instantly Worthless. You know.

Ryan: Yeah I mean and my feeling with nfts right? and in the current like fad that we're in with them is and that's not I'm not passing judgment on them as a whole because I think there's there's likely broader applications is That. No, it's like hot Potato. No 1 you don't ever want to be the person currently holding a very valuable Nft you always want to be the person that has just sold a very valuable and nft.

Andrew: Right? right? and I realize we're conflating nfts with crypto a little bit I mean they're they're interrelated in some ways they're they're not quite the same thing. But.

Ryan: No, we are but it's all and it's not an nfts aren't really part of web 3 in terms of the work that you and I do writing code deploying applications that are used on the web.

Andrew: I well I don't know ryan people are selling nfts for like you know the first commit to some very famous github repos and and other code things like that.

Ryan: So maybe on craft Quest I should I should generate and give nfts to people that achieve certain things on the site.

Andrew: So well, here's the key though. So who do do here's the key though who do Nftts benefit they primarily benefit people that have some kind of notoriety or things that have some kind of notoriety already. In other words, if you are a celebrity.

Ryan: A.

Andrew: You probably could sell your bathwater or an nft to your bathwater or something like that I'm not even making this up. There's a God What is her name Bell Deline That's who it is. It's some ridiculous youtuber that what she did was she sold her bathwater like literally sold her bathwater.

Ryan: Ah.

Andrew: Bottled up in little bottles and people were going crazy buying it all over the place right? Just buying the dumbest things and it's kind of similar with nfts in that if you are famous. Let's say you are Michael jordan and there is some famous shot or you know you have some notoriety in some way.

Ryan: Or Bank or bank see or something right right.

Andrew: That people want who want to feel special or important or part of the thing would find value in owning some moment that you had well then you're going to get a real benefit out of Nfts. But if you're just like you know. Like you and me a dude who wakes up in the morning, you're not going to sell no nft to your toenail Clippings. You know what? I mean like it's just not going to happen or you know,? whatever even something useful or interesting that we've done so nfts are something that I think they really tend to benefit people or things that have notoriety already because. For people to be interested in buying them. They have to know about it already and be interested in it already. There was a ah case again a poker related 1 It's interesting poker and crypto are pretty interrelated because a lot of people think online poker in the United States is illegal. It actually isn't and it never was illegal what they did is they made the transfer of money for that purpose to be Illegal. So What a lot of poker players did is they got in on crypto because they could trade bitcoin without any kind of a problem right? Um, yeah.

Ryan: Ah.

Andrew: And so a lot of poker players have gotten in on the nft thing. So There's ah, a famous hand that a very notable poker player played and you can buy the nft for that hand For instance Now. I Don't care like this even though I Enjoy Poker I don't really play much anymore. But I enjoy it and all that I have no I ascribe no value to that whatsoever. But because of the notoriety of the person and the event there are enough people that have interest in it. So I Just think it's interesting to note that.

Ryan: Right.

Andrew: And Nfts are something that if you have any kind of fame or clout or you have a thing that has some kind of fame or is ah well-known. That's where you can apply nfts. But for the let's say you're an unknown artist. You're not going to sell no nfts to your artwork like it's not going to happen.

Ryan: Right? That makes sense so that that was your way of saying that you're not going to buy any craft Quest Nfts I Guess oh okay.

Andrew: You know.

Andrew: You No probably not but you know just being realistic. You're not going to sell them. You know it's just the way that I'm not trying to denigrate you or anything you do great work. It's not that.

Ryan: 5

Ryan: You're you're kind of raining on my parade a little bit here I thought I was about to be the next crypto king.

Andrew: But well I think it's fun to look at who these things actually benefit you know and if you if you are a celebrity. This is 1 great way to leverage your celebrity whether it's as you know an internet celebrity or movie or sports or whatever. Well.

Ryan: Yeah.

Andrew: Then you can capitalize on that notoriety that you have built up and make money from these kinds of things. But I think that's where it's kind of an inside baseball kind of thing in a way that the people that it benefits are those people you know.

Ryan: Yeah, it it definitely feels like another collector's game. Um, but I like that you talked about how it's not really that much different than how we treat the value of other things.

Andrew: Right? yeah.

Ryan: And I think that's the to me that's the divide where like you think that you know somebody may be like oh like those kids in their cryptocurrencies. That's just worthless stuff. There's no, there's no real. There's no real worth or value there Meanwhile they're like.

Andrew: Right.

Ryan: In their 1 point 2 million dollars like Thousand square foot house in ah in a town somewhere and you're like well how is that worth 1 point. 2 million dollars. It literally has 5000 dollars of lumber you know from nineteen fifty that put that thing together like.

Andrew: Right.

Ryan: You know how is it any different. It's all just perceptions that we have about what something is worth and to me that's like the the gulf between that old way of valuing things and the new way valuing things and also the gulf between living only in the real world like you know. Ah, human to human some people call it Meat space I think it's kind of a gross word. Um and like you know the the metaverse you know like the the the ah virtual virtual Reality. No, it's not but it's like ah.

Andrew: What is this a Facebook ad.

Ryan: I don't think that those these 2 things are that far apart I just think that some people just have some biases based on their age versus other people who who are but younger.

Andrew: You Well sure man like if you have invested tons of time in a game your possessions in that game are valuable to you. You know if you've worked on them and earned them and all that kind of stuff they're every bit as valuable to you as some of the real world possessions that you might have you know? Okay, So maybe they don't have the same. Utility but they still hold value to you right? and.

Ryan: The whole value. Yeah, my kid plays roblox and she has things in that game that are in 1 of the games on roblox that are really important to her. She actually has paid money for from her own allowance to have like these certain attributes or features or things.

Andrew: The right. I That's right.

Ryan: And they mean a lot like it would be a big deal if her account somehow was canceled and she didn't have access to that anymore because she earned it or she paid for it and it it means something it means something more than you know, a physical item that she could get.

Andrew: Yeah, so the the new way of valuing things is a lot like the old way of valuing things and it's just is how much do other people value that same thing is what it is. You know everyone decides they want to live in the same area while the value of that place goes way up, you know and if you think about it. Why is the dollar worth anything like you take a dollar bill to the store. Why is that worth anything well in reality it's it's not but it's backed by the full faith and credit of the United states right? So then you have something like bitcoin. Well why is that valuable. Because it's backed by the the full faith and credit of all the other people that think that bitcoin has value so it's not really that different.

Ryan: All the people right? and that and that's the argument that a lot of the bitcoin proponents make which is you know they call the dower a fiat currency because it is no longer backed by gold. There's no longer a limited supply.

Andrew: You right.

Ryan: Material that 1 to 1 backs the currency. No, it doesn't.

Andrew: I but clearly that doesn't matter because the the issue or the real thing that is backing it again is the full faith in credit and the fact that I can take that dollar bill down to a local so well. Okay I can't really buy anything with a dollar I can take that twenty dollars bill down to a local store and I can try to buy something the interesting thing about bitcoin is that you cannot do that so I can't just go to my local pizza shop and buy a pizza using bitcoin that's just not a thing that is uncommon right.

Ryan: Unless they take bitcoin but they like we don't yeah.

Andrew: Due to I mean I realized that there are ways that they have worked around this but the high cost and the speed of the bitcoin transactions are slow and they basically have layered on another layer of currency to allow that to be quicker so you know maybe those things will be solved but realistically, that's just not happening. There are far more people that are using something like Apple pay to go and buy something at a local store than are using something like bitcoin just because of the acceptance of the thing and and to some extent limitations of the technology that that are there but it's this interesting that the actual utility of bitcoin. Is not the thing that has caused it to be over 60000 dollars per coin I god I'm gonna have a heart attack thinking about how much money I would have had anyway. Um, it's the fact that other people find value in this thing you know.

Ryan: Right? It's like language we all agree on the meanings of words and what those words are and if we didn't We'd be a big old mess.

Andrew: That that's right I So despite the fact that I've sort of said in some ways that I think Nfts are stupid. That's fine.

Ryan: You're getting get some email.

Andrew: That doesn't mean that I don't think that they are going to have value because humans are weird man. You know if if we all just collectively decide that these nfts are are awesome and if in some way I can have clout by owning the the nft for this thing or that thing.

Ryan: Right.

Andrew: Well, they're going to continue to have value and some people are probably going to make a whole bunch of money. But so speaking of the metaverse 1 of the things that I picked up recently is I bought an oculus quest to which is.

Ryan: Agreed.

Ryan: Amazing device.

Andrew: And I realize I'm late you know I'm usually right up there on on getting the the new toy. But in this case I'm kind of late to the party I'm like ah it came out over a year ago right.

Ryan: It did. Yeah we got 1 I bought 1 for the family last year for christmas I think it came out around october november maybe last year um it so like a lot of people hate facebook and you have to have a Facebook account in order to use it. Um I'm not that like.

Andrew: Yep, okay.

Andrew: Yep.

Ryan: Dogmatic about this whole thing I think that the the thing that kept me from using Vr like that was that I had to have like another computer sitting next to it that the goggles were attached to either you know and I don't want to This is all integrated into the goggles.

Andrew: Right? right.

Ryan: And we love it. My kid loves it. Um, she has our friends over and they like to play it sometimes and but she likes things like the virtual reality like um, what is it job simulator where you can have different jobs. Yeah.

Andrew: I Oh my God Oh we need to have a talk with your daughter. This is horrible.

Ryan: But and then vacation simulator I'll be what are you doing and she'd be like laying on the floor. She's like I'm in my bed in my hotel room I'm on vacation.

Andrew: Ryan Take your daughter on a vacation somewhere I mean my God What are you doing to.

Ryan: Ah, ah, ah so but yeah, what have you ah have you already received it and used it. What's your experience.

Andrew: I Yeah so I'll tell you what sold me on it like I Obviously I knew about this thing but I was just like oh yeah, you know that's neat or whatever I don't know how I stumbled upon it but I stumbled upon a Star Wars game that was available for the oculus Quest too. And I saw people wielding a light saver in a Vr simulator and I'm like I'm buying it I'm like I have always wanted to do that. Are you kidding me sold right? So I bought it and I played it with it a little bit I've been pretty busy but my son was using it.

Ryan: Yeah.

Andrew: And he was playing just the it's called Vader Immortal I believe is the game and we haven't even started the game So we're just in this like training dojo where you can learn how to use the lightsaber and everything and man it is so cool like you map out the area that you can you can be in.

Ryan: Yeah.

Andrew: And you have this headset on like you said you're not tethered to anything. It's there. It's light works really well and you reach out and you grab the light saber with your hand and you pick it Up. You turn it out and it's just incredible. My son was playing it for a little bit and he's just like oh. I've always wanted to do this. You know he had to light Saber he's doing it and I'm like yeah me too buddy like totally and we're having we barely scratch the surface like we have a number of games for it. I've only ever tried that 1 game and we're still in the training dojo and we're having a blast with it Man we're having such a good time.

Ryan: Yeah.

Ryan: Yeah, so do the? um, ah try maybe your kids would like this too the what is it like the the 3 sixty degree roller coaster videos to do those on there. Um, they'll freak you out and.

Andrew: Ah, love it.

Andrew: Oh god.

Ryan: I'm trying to think what? Ah what else I've played I haven't done a ton on it I Think my only complaint with it is that and maybe I shouldn't get like it's only a complaint because I'm like I'm not cheap I'm just not like it just seems off the game seem kind of expensive.

Andrew: You It's okay to be cheap Ryan right.

Ryan: Yeah, the games seem kind of expensive like I think every it's like basically console game prices for games on there.

Andrew: I It's actually true because I I woke up the next morning and I looked at my credit card statement I'm like holy crap. What are what are all these charges. Um I Apparently I went a little crazy with the buy button on there. You know.

Ryan: Ah, yeah. Yeah, but it's It's an amazing device and I I feel like that. It's if they start getting the form factor lower in lower Rock. We have with younger kids that have smaller heads. It still is a little bit front heavy and you really have to get the straps going Well ah.

Andrew: They Yeah they they have this elite strap for it that makes it a lot better. Yeah, there's ah this little strap that you put on there that has like a little crank that you dial back and it makes it stay on their kids' heads much much easier.

Ryan: Oh really.

Ryan: Oh I have to look at that because that's been a struggle as we like swap between kids you know like if if my daughter has friends over.

Andrew: You Yeah now it's perfect because it's just ah, it's a dial on the back and you crank it up or down and it just makes it super easy to not only get it on different people of different sizes but also then to have it fit snugly on them without having to jerk around with it much.

Ryan: E.

Ryan: I will look at that then cool. Oh gosh we're already done because we we are ordered everything early date to get around the supply chain constraints.

Andrew: I'm smelling Christmas Present Ryan But ah, you know? yeah.

Andrew: Oh my god you just sapped all of the fun out of Christmas by saying shopped in November to get around supply chain issues. Alright anyway I've been having a fantastic time with this thing barely of scratch the surface.

Ryan: That's how it is.

Andrew: But my son was just playing it last night it was the first time he ever played it and he woke up this morning and he's like dad would it be bad if I played that game before school today and and that's how I knew that he really loved it and again we're only in the training part of this thing.

Ryan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's so it's so immersive and fun. It's you have to be in there and we used to like see your hands and ah, it's just.

Andrew: And he's having a ah freaking blast with it. You know? yeah.

Ryan: You know because you have the controllers in your hands and that replaces it with your with ah visual version of your hand. It's just it's super cool. It's ah it's a great device.

Andrew: We Alright so let's go from something fun to something immensely boring you add something about time block planning.

Ryan: Okay. Ah, yeah, So um, have you heard of this before.

Andrew: I mean I understand what the words mean and I think I know what you mean which is just you block off sections of time to plan for stuff.

Ryan: So every day in the morning I sit down.

Andrew: You in your cold rain barrel while you scrub your back and you have your ruby ducky there? Yeah yeah, well your neighbors do anyway. Yeah no I think you just have no shame. Ah.

Ryan: We We don't need anyone to have a visual of me scrubbing my back and um, you think I'm like the waltons here on Walton Mountain. Ah, just because I grew up in New Jersey doesn't mean I don't have shame. Um so every day I sit down and I use a.

Ryan: So every day I sit down hang on. We'll wait. Okay. So every day I sit down in the morning when I start my day and I have what's the equivalent of kind of like a graph paper and I just create these blocks. So I label like let's say on the y axes ah nine zero a m 10 a m 11 am so forth all the way down to like 5 pm I'm the most boring person in the world I come to I come to I come to my office I come to my office as if there's a boss waiting for me and I work as if someone was watching me before i.

Andrew: I Was gonna say does this give you pleasure because I hope it does because it sounds like torture to me.

Andrew: I If I was your boss and you came in here with some drawings on some graph paper I would fire you.

Ryan: Ah, so what? I do is the idea is that you plan your day. You don't let your day happen. You're intentional and you say from nine to noon I'm going to have a time to focus on writing. Code for a new important feature of seomatic and I'm not doing anything else during that time I'm not answering email I'm not you know texting with ryan about random stuff or sending him insults or anything like that. You're just focused on 1 thing and then you say okay from 12 to 1230 take a break have lunch chill and then from 1230 to 3 30 or 2 30 or whatever I'm gonna work on this thing and the idea is that you intentionally plan each day so that you're doing the things that are most important to you that are perhaps what's on your ah. You know on your calendar to have done by a certain time if you have deadlines and and then you can you can just be more intentional about your day and then at the end of the week you realize like oh wow I got all this stuff done I didn't have like random 1 hour escapades on Twitter or social Media. Just was able to focus on all of my work so that's what I do and I use a um, there's a website so there's a planner I use called the time Black planner. It's by this author cal newport I've mentioned his books before ah and but you you don't need to have a planner like this you can just use graph paper. You can use just a normal a normal notebook. If you want and the idea is that you're just intentional about what you're working on and when you're working on it.

Andrew: Can we use a computer. Can we use these wonderful tools called Computers or do we have to use paper that.

Ryan: No, you can use a computer you can just have a text file and you can just say nine twelve this thing it's all about just sitting down and and every morning just having that that process that and of of setting like your your plan for the day and then sticking to it. And know that during those those longer blocks where you're trying to do your more focus work. You know, like write writing code like you know if you sit down to work on a new feature for seomatic. It may take you twenty minutes to kind of settle in to where you're really like engrossed in the whole thing. And trying to I mean it does for me I don't know how you work. Maybe you can just drop right into it. But and the idea is that you have 3 hours and if you get in that deep focus mode on the work. You don't want to be interrupted by you know, a bunch of other things. So if you set that time aside that's the only thing you work on you put your. Have all these nice focus modes on our phone now on in Ios. You just have that focus mode and you won't get any notifications from anyone about anything. You don't check what's that.

Andrew: So you know what I've noticed that though is that people that have that feature on I'll text them and I'll get a little thing back saying focus mode is on. Do you really want to notify them and then and then they write me back anyway and so it's like.

Ryan: Yeah I've turned off those notifications. You shouldn't see it from me anymore I've disabled it right.

Andrew: But what I'm saying is they were ignoring the fact that they were in focus mode and they were just doing what they were doing before anyway. But so I do not do what you're talking about I probably would drive you absolutely insane because I I don't sit down with a no. Grid paper notebook and plan out what I'm doing I do sometimes mentally decide what I'm gonna do I'm a little bit more feel based in terms of what do I feel like doing cause I have a huge pile of things that I could be doing. On any particular day and some days I feel like writing some days I feel like coding some. You know this set or the other thing but also I don't know if it's I don't think it's add I don't think it's anything like that I think I just work pretty well in Chaos. So I can do stuff like I can be writing an article and I can be answering. People's texts or in Discord or something like that I can jump back and forth or I can be watching a movie or tv show while I'm doing something else and arguably you know, maybe I'm doing a much worse job.

Ryan: Yeah I can't do that.

Andrew: And the the thing that I'm trying to do I've never done like an a B test to see what the the quality of work is like but I do find that I enjoy it a little bit more if I'm doing that I don't know how well that would work for me to structure it. As formally as that maybe maybe would actually be helpful I don't know.

Ryan: So You can do like let's say you do like 2 2 hour blocks in a day where you're just focused on the work.. The nice thing is that in those four hours you probably have had more productivity and more good work done. Then like a lot of people would if they didn't do this I mean like I feel like that I can I can do all of my work really well in I'm not saying anything about that I I feel like I could do a lot of work of my work in.

Andrew: I What are you saying about the quality of my work ryan.

Ryan: Way less than forty hours and still get ah everything I need done at the the level and quality that I want to do it? yeah.

Andrew: So getting back to our topic on loving your work does having this kind of structure allow you to enjoy your work more because to me my gut Instinct would be that if it were that formalized I might enjoy it less I don't know.

Ryan: I do enjoy it more because it is I don't have to like I don't think about it I just I'm in there and I'm doing it but I also allow my side myself time like I have at the end of my day usually of the last hour or 2 I usually leave it.

Andrew: I.

Ryan: Open so it's just planning and thinking I can process especially like on Fridays when we're recording this the end of my day is wide open I can do whatever I want a lot of times. It's just sitting and just thinking and reflecting on the work I've done and looking through like just. Ideas that I've had or just not do or even reading a book you know, just just whatever or I I mean I'm a I love naps I have a yoga mat right here that I roll out on the floor and I sleep on all the time. Um.

Andrew: Or or curling up and takingcking a nap right.

Andrew: Well I think that's interesting I I don't know that it's something that I'm going to necessarily try. But maybe I will I don't know. But.

Ryan: Yeah, it's I mean it's probably like a little puritan of me because I do think that structure like that does um, make things more fun and it feels like I have ah more freedom and fun outside of that structure. So.

Andrew: So you like being told what to do even if the person telling you what to do is yourself right? you like having that. Oh okay and the free time in the afternoon you use kind of as a a cookie so you're like okay if I get through.

Ryan: I Only like being told what to do when it's me that's telling me what to do? Yeah I have a problem with that. Yeah.

Andrew: These blocks of time and I did the the stuff that I said I was going to do my reward is going to be my free time at the end of the day.

Ryan: Yeah, and and that's a lot of people don't agree with that I've had I've had long conversations with old friends where they say Wow So you're just going to deprive yourself now. Just so you can have it later.

Andrew: And well look people are different I know this is a shocking revelation and what works for some people doesn't work for others so you know I don't I don't I see people using all kinds of strategies and I'm like great. You know if that's something that allows you to do what you need to do that's wonderful. I Think this is also sort of the mentality that has made some traditional companies have a hard time during the pandemic is that they're used to having that kind of control over people and that forced structure on people and on the other hand. There are some people that are used to having that kind of structure and need that kind of structure in order to do their stuff and you know.

Ryan: Yeah, when I when I worked for another for a company. You had an employer I Absolutely resented the fact that they imposed that structure on my day that I had to be in this office nine to five I am in this office nine to five every single day.

Andrew: Yep.

Ryan: Working for myself and I was for the five years before I had that job and I have been for the almost years since I left the job I am I just that's just built into me. It's just how I work I just like that routine I like doing the same thing every day like that and then every once a while I'll get tired and I just will. Change things up I do the same thing with running I'm very structured tuesdays at 5 a m I get up to run thursdays at 5 am I get up to run Saturdays at 7 Sundays at 7 I try to do it every single Week. So I don't have to think about it. But sometimes yeah.

Andrew: And and for things like that I agree for things like that it needs to be habit. So we do the same thing with our workouts and with the hikes and stuff like that like like that I I guess I do do what you're talking about and I make that kind of time.

Ryan: Yeah, yeah. But sometimes I I get tired of it and I say I'm quitting running I don't like that I feel like now that the schedule is controlling me and I I need to I need to exercise my agency and I need to exercise my free will if that exists.

Andrew: I.

Andrew: Oh dear god.

Ryan: And so I just stop I stopped running for 2 weeks just to prove myself that I can do it and then I go right back into it again because I realize the benefit of that of that routine. It's just all mind games. We're not nothing's real. It's all perceptions.

Andrew: You right? right? now. Let me let so you mentioned that you resented some of the when your time was being imposed on you. So I immediately started thinking of zoom meetings and and you know people that are just stuck in Zoom hell every day.

Ryan: Yeah.

Andrew: Do you know? what? ah a Chaos Monkey is and so there actually is a tool called Chaos Monkey but it's also just kind of a general concept which is it is something that will go in and just randomly cause various systems to fail to make sure.

Ryan: I I don't.

Ryan: Okay, right? So it's like a testing tool. Yeah yeah.

Andrew: That there is resiliency in whatever Infra or app that you're working on so it was Sean Swicks Wang tweeted out something that thought was really Funny. He said what about the idea he said hot startup idea Chaos Monkey But for meetings. So It would just randomly go in and cancel meetings like would that be great I would I think that's a fantastic idea you imagine if they you know you had this slate of meetings and you looked at your day and you're like oh my God I'm in meetings almost my entire day.

Ryan: Yeah I bet the happiness I bet the happiness of of the employees would increase.

Andrew: And then you get a notification that said Chaos Monkey has canceled meeting X like you'd be thrilled. You know? yeah.

Ryan: Yeah, oh man that we should We should. We should put a pin in this topic because meetings like the meetings aren't work. We should. We should note that down for another another live stream or another ah podcast.

Andrew: You? Well, they may not be work but 1 of the reasons we're ending the show is because you have to go to a meeting so it sounds like it sounds like someone else is imposing their time on you and it sounds like work to me but that about wraps it up for another episode of the devmo dot fm podcast if you enjoy the show make sure to subscribe tell a friend drop us a review.

Ryan: I Do have a meeting. Ah. Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: Fivestar really helps in terms of discoverability just saying we really appreciate it for the devmo fm podcast I'm Andrew Welch and.

Ryan: And I'm Ryan ireland.

Andrew: I So your audio was terrible in the beginning like it was breaking up and choppy and all that kind of stuff I'm hoping it's not on the original recording. So if you're listening to this and Ryan's audio was garbage in the beginning we apologize. We don't know what it is Ryan keeps bragging to me about some fiber this or fiber that. But.

Ryan: Oh well I've been uploading videos to vimeo the whole time we were recording.

Andrew: I Don't know. Well that sounds like a really good choice. Ryan That's that's good. Yeah, Thank you.

Ryan: Thank you for good choices.