Episode 118 / 2021.10.04
Andrew Welch, Ryan Irelan
Ryan Irelan & Andrew record another devMode standup streamed live on YouTube where we talk about some really cool new streaming shows such as “Mythic Quest” and “Foundation”.
Then we also discuss the challenges of raising precocious kids with technology… even if you are very tech-savvy yourself!
We also discuss the iOS “focus mode”, ExpressionEngine Pro’s new frontend editing mode that’s a throwback to MojoMotor, Chrome’s design mode, and how product feature design can be a slippery slope to navigate.
We also talk about Andrew’s book reading fail, Ryan’s insults, the upcoming DotAll online conference, and how both of us approach tech and other conferences in terms of what we want to get out of them.
- Mythic Quest
- It's Always Sunny in Philadephia
- Squid Game
- Heart of Darkness
- iOS 15 Focus Mode
- Instagram for kids paused after backlash
- eeconf 2021 conference
- Chrome Design Mode
- MojoMotor on GitHub.com
- ExpressionEngine Pro demo
- Admin Bar plugin
- Nuxt.js 3
- DotAll 2021 conference
- GraphQL Schema Auto-Completion with PhpStorm
Andrew: And starting the backup recording say something right? Perfect not doing it without a backup recording this time right? It's just not happening all right here I do see it and I'm seeing it on my end too. So.
Ryan: Hello My name is Ryan. I Don't see anything in my audio wave though? Do you?? okay.
Andrew: Let's just assume it's coming in worst case I do have the backup recording all right? So here we go. We're going to start the actual show now.
Andrew: Welcome to devmo fm a podcast dedicated to the tools techniques and technologies used in modern web development I'm andrew weltch from and ny studio 1 7
Ryan: I and I'm Ryan Ireland from Krafquest io.
Andrew: And we are being uber professionals sitting here on a Monday morning rerecording this podcast because we had to throw 1 out right? Ryan is it I don't even know what day it is I don't even know what's going on anymore. Let me tell you something.
Ryan: It's yeah, it's a Sunday morning though. Andrew you're all mixed up. Yeah. All right? You tell me.
Andrew: Let me tell you something we're gonna launch right into this so patrick told me about this tv show Mythic quest and I'd heard of it but I looked at it and I'm like this looks dumb because it's this. It's a show about a video game company. They make this mm massively multiplayer online rpg game.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: And I'm just like you know what I was in the industry at 1 point in my life or for for a lot of it and I don't need to see this like this is this looks stupid I don't know sometimes shows that are about your thing that you do are kind of cringy. You know what? I mean because they're they're very cliche and whatever.
Andrew: So he was just like no man you gotta just check it out. You gotta just check that just watch 1 episode. It's this show is so andrew and was like fine so on on Friday I started watching the first show and ryan I was up until like 4 or 5 in the morning.
Ryan: I Yeah, ah.
Andrew: On Friday like I'm not even kidding you like I sat there and I binge watched the whole first season. Oh my god.
Ryan: Well I just looked at this So Charlie day is is that from. It's always sunny is that who that is okay and then Rob Mcullaney Um I know he has done like maybe cringe comedy I can't remember okay all right that sounds like a good.
Andrew: Yes I believe that is him. Yeah.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan: Those are the creators or 2 of the creators and then megan gans is the other creator. So it sounds.
Andrew: It's so good though it is so good because I I have either worked with known or Ben about a dozen of the characters that are in the show and they are just it's it's so good man it is so good like I would definitely. It's on.
Andrew: Um, Hbo Um, no, it's not sorry. It's on Apple Plus so you need that and if you have looked at this and passed it by because you're like ah this is gonna be stupid. It's awesome. It is freaking awesome.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan: Well so I'm in I'm not. It's a little bit early for me. But I just realized that both Rob Mcellinney of course and Megan Gans Android Dave they're all. It's basically like the trio from it's always sunny.
Andrew: Yeah, and I watched that show a little bit and I never got super into it's sunny I know some people Absolutely love it. Um, so I can't I don't I wouldn't say there are a.
Ryan: Are basically creating a new show and.
Ryan: I think you would like it if you like Kim's convenience and stuff like that I think you would like it like they're yeah.
Andrew: Like I said I tried I don't know for whatever reason it didn't happen but listen I'm just saying if you have Apple tv plus and you have passed by this show. Check it out like watch the first episode or 2 it is absolutely absolutely hilarious ryan i. Thought it was fantastic, but that's 1 of the reasons like I'm I'm all groggy and it's not from like going out and partying and having fun. It's because I sat on my butt and I binge watch this show and I'm still not recovered from it man oh my goodness. Yeah.
Ryan: Yeah, well I've been watching on Apple tv plus they're really starting to kill it with with their their own series I've been watching foundation and okay.
Andrew: Yep now I started that because you told me to watch it I think it I think it might be too and I read the books years and years ago I don't know maybe I wasn't in the right mood.
Ryan: So right is it the time is it the jumping between time it. It can be hard to track like what's happening.
Andrew: It seemed very plotting like it. It reminded me of the original Dune movie or some of those series that are just it's much. It's much more slow moving and yeah and I think.
Ryan: Right. And totally.
Andrew: You know what? I honestly think what part of the problem was is I think it's the kind of show that I need to pay attention to more and I was That's what I was doing. That's exactly what I was doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ryan: And you can't have your laptop open and work on stuff while you're yeah yeah, you can't do that. Yeah, you have to sit and focus and and watch it. Um, so ah, last night we started watching because I had watched all my shows. Um, we started watching squid game have you heard of this and oh my gosh and no it is not is definitely not for watching for with kids and we did not but um, the we looked at each other and said why.
Andrew: Um, I've heard of it I haven't started it I haven't watched it yet I heard it's not for watching with kids though.
Ryan: Like so it was number 1 like on Netflix it was ranked as like 1 the most popular show and we looked at just like why do people watch this and then like halfway or more than halfway through the second episode where like. This is awful but we kind of want to know like what happens now like I kind of get why people are watching it. It's so terrible. Um, and it's not because I had I had mentioned to my wife earlier as we were trying to find something to watch it said I don't really want to watch like a.
Ryan: Like a true crime or like some like real like I mean this is definitely twisted but twisted creepy thing that would that's like twisted and creepy with like homicide or like things like that like I I don't really find those as like entertainment I think it's it's all just kind of creepy and twisted. Um.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan: But squid game is definitely creepy and twisted. But it's also it seems so implausible that you you can like you can just let it like kind of Rise above like real life because ah it's It's the strangest thing. Um.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah, it's sort of like cartoon violence right in that if you if you look at exactly what is actually going on. You're like Wow that's messed up but you yeah I get to.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah, and it's you know it's it's also interesting. It's it's a south korean show. Um, so it's it's interesting just from like the just the settings and stuff like that. So it's not a traditional like western like North american you know, sort of plotted show like that. So.
Andrew: So I can use the the 2 phrases that I know in Korean fantastic.
Ryan: Ah, for.
Ryan: Ah, so anyway, um, ah yeah, definitely enough for kids but I kind of want to like see what happens. Um I don't know but we'll see so foundation by the way they said they're gonna I was listening to the the podcast that's made for the show and I think they.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan: 1 of the the showrunners said that something about like 8 seasons which seems like I was kind of like well I don't know if I want to get all that invested now because like I don't have 8 seasons worth of time to like you know that'll be I'll be like you know.
Andrew: Oh wow.
Ryan: Almost halfway through my fifty s if they do it like 1 season per year but they probably do more than that. They probably do 2 seasons a year anyway so
Andrew: And why I doubt it I don't think they're going to do 2 seasons a year why would they do that.
Ryan: I don't know I've always thought the streaming services do things a little more rapid than they than the network shows always did I don't know I remember I remember new season starting when school started in September and then ending.
Andrew: So yeah, well well and.
Andrew: Listen man don't even talk to me because I remember when tv stations when there are only a couple of them and I remember when they would go off the air I remember that you would be watching them the national anthem would play and then there'd be static right.
Ryan: When school ended in the spring and then.
Ryan: Ah, yeah.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the okay.
Andrew: All right? 1 of the other things that I want to get to ryan because we have to address this. We haven't addressed this anywhere else is I made a promise to you and I broke my promise I was away on vacation I told you I would read a book.
Ryan: I How we brought my text messages something on. Yeah.
Andrew: Even even picked out a book that was Ryanapp approved you you weren't happy that I was going to read on webassembly and you weren't happy that I was going to read on Test-ri development. We picked out Conrad's heart of darkness which is a book that I've actually wanted to read for a long time I Also I'll be honest with you I picked it out because it wasn't that big.
Andrew: And I'm like oh this is something that I could probably accomplish without a problem and ah page 29 ryan page twenty nine that's where I got to.
Ryan: Okay. So your your youngest son messaged me probably while you're on vacation and he said he read 28 pages so he he was making sure that you didn't have an opportunity to lie about about your reading.
Andrew: I don't know what it is about but my kids love to see it when I fail for 1 reason or another so you know he's he's definitely gonna be keeping track on this. But yeah, thanks ryan you just? yes.
Ryan: Well, that's probably good. Yeah, it's It's a good. It's good to ah to model that for them.
Andrew: Letting me know I'm not going to win no father of the year award all right? So what happened then? so I started off straw I read a decent amount I figured you know I'll read maybe fifteen twenty pages a day and it'll be no problem. No sweat so 2 nights in a row I read in it.
Andrew: Everything was great and then we were doing so much stuff during the day and the place we're staying at was a very old house in Cape cod and it was not the most comfortable in terms of like the the mattress was definitely from. It had been around for like.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan: It was it a classic like Beach house rental with like seashell like decor everywhere.
Andrew: Fifty years or so.
Andrew: This was a house that they actually grew up in. There was some of that but the most ah honestly like we we drove there and we pulled in to the driveway late late at night because it was a little bit dark when we got there.
Andrew: And I swear to god like I stopped halfway pulling through and looked over at my wife I'm like are we gonna die because this looked exactly like 1 of the openings to like the cabin in the woods and that like horror movies where you're pulling up the driveway. It was a dirt driveway embedded back in the trees and.
Ryan: Yeah I.
Andrew: And there was just nothing around no light, no anything I was like oh my God Um I could have been the next in that flick series for for real yeah and it was a real old style house. So it it was really fragile I Guess you could say.
Ryan: You you you could have been in the next netflix series for sure.
Andrew: There was not a lot of electricity so they had lamps in every room. So if you wanted to go in a room you had to turn on all the the like tabletop lamps that were sitting there. Not ah a central light switch kind of thing you know and then there instead of air conditioning. They had all these fans all over the place like.
Ryan: First right.
Andrew: Whatever store sold fans and lamps they they made a fortune off these people because every room had them all over the place and it also had it is this might be it could be when the house was made it. It could also just be the area I don't really know but it had like a fragile plumbing system and it was It was very you know. It was nothing wrong with it. But it was definitely definitely a ah throwback shall we say like going back in time maybe 50 years and in what you might expect in terms of the modernity of the house. You know what? I'm saying.
Ryan: Yeah, that's the that's the Air B and B Autoto right? You just don't know what you're going to get sometimes.
Andrew: Who yeah who well rammi chill man.
Ryan: He's mad you didn't take him with you.
Andrew: But um, but the okay so the reason I'm even mentioning that is just that I'm just setting it up like the bed itself wasn't that comfortable so I wasn't sleeping that great. So when it came time to go to bed from all the stuff we're doing during the day and from not sleeping that great.
Andrew: I was just tired man I was just like you know what I could read or um I could just go to sleep and yeah I just went to sleep ryan so I failed and I'm gonna publicly admit that I have failed but I have I have not given up I've got my hammock set up and I'm planning to do a little reading today actually believe it or not.
Ryan: Hey it is definitely hammock weather right now. East's here. It is kind of getting a break in the in the heat a little bit. Okay, you're good at that.
Andrew: Yeah, so this is gonna transition to something else that I wanted to ask you about I want to set up a a hypothetical for you and see how you would handle this as a tech parent. Okay.
Andrew: So let's say that your daughter really really wanted something and let's say that she was pretty tech savvy and she went into your wife's purse and.
Andrew: And she took 1 of the credit cards that was in there and signed up for her own Amazon account also signed up for Youtube premium and google workspace and a whole bunch of other things like that and let's say that they racked up you know.
Ryan: Oh no.
Andrew: 500 dollars or so in charges. How would you handle that in terms of ah dealing with disciplining this child.
Ryan: Wow. Ah, that's hard to say so I would say that the like I thought you werere gonna ask me like a like device access question like snuck you know snuck in some ipad time. Or some computer time but but I would say that um that it's making me pause a minute because there's there's like an egregious like violation of trust when you go into it's 1 thing do I go on the Amazon account that exists and.
Andrew: Yeah, we're well beyond that Ryan so.
Andrew: Yes, so.
Ryan: Order something but it's the it's the going to the purse like Wow Um, this is yeah it's yeah I would um I would probably this is this is where I would like.
Andrew: And it's the disrespect really and you know violation of privacy and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah. Is it boarding school time Ryan is it boarding school time. Do you just package them up and ship them off military. Yeah yeah.
Ryan: What's that I mean military school probably um I don't know this is where like this is where I have the advantage and you have the advantage of being like a 2 parent household where I can.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan: We can like have a consultation with each other and just say like how the heck are we gonna deal with this because like my immediate reaction is to basically like scream you know like and just be like irate mostly out of for me would be mostly out of like just life.
Andrew: Right? right? right? right.
Ryan: So just be like hurt by it basically just because like but yeah I don't know I mean I think there would have to be some like consequence that's of like considerable in nature for sure. Definitely um I don't know. But.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: Oh sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure.
Ryan: Try not to default back to like too much like old school parenting where it's like a lot of like um consequence based parenting but that seems seems pretty beyond the pale you know of.
Andrew: Right? so.
Ryan: Yeah, so hypothetically speaking that's um I can't even like yeah I'm not sure what I would do I would definitely be like I am right now trying to struggle to figure out how how to approach the problem I don't know.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah, well I'm not saying that there's any correlation between the 2 but you're you're probably not going to be seeing tyler on tyler's tips on the podcast on craftquest anytime soon. It's probably not a thing that's going to be happening.
Ryan: I yeah.
Ryan: Okay, yeah.
Andrew: And yeah, it it really what it boils down to with him is lack of impulse control if he really wants something or really wants to do something. He doesn't he doesn't think about anything else and ah.
Andrew: Got him in got him in hot water. But I'm I'm bringing this up not to air my own personal dirty laundry or whatever. But I think it's kind of interesting because lots of us are dealing with being parents in an environment where the kids have access to so much stuff man.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: Like they they can just Google it They can do this. They can do that and just consider yourself lucky if they don't express a whole lot of interest in in going out and doing this stuff because it's hard to police this stuff. You know what? I mean.
Ryan: So it is and I feel like we we lost a lot of ground during the pandemic like early on in the pandemic when at least in our case like the only like friend to friend Communication was initially like electronic.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan: And then it was like outside and then that kind of subsided but we already had seeded ground and and mostly because we didn't know we didn't know what was going on what like how the long this was going to be like what the proper protocol is um, but yeah I definitely see it and I don't even.
Ryan: Blame like the kids because honestly like most parents have terrible online and device habits as well and they're modeling that for the kids They don't realize that they don't realize that while they're waiting for the fried potatoes to fry that they basically are whipping their phone out of their back pocket and and.
Andrew: So yep.
Ryan: And taking a peek at it you know and that's modeling all sorts of like device addiction behavior for other people and.
Andrew: Now remember someone saying that kids don't do what you tell them? they do what they see you doing you know what? I mean so it's a very. It's definitely true R Definitely true.
Ryan: Right? Oh absolutely. Absolutely and I have a a very um like because that we we hold our child to a certain standard is that if we don't meet that. Um, just because of how she is maybe because she's half German is that she calls it out when we don't hold ourselves to that same standard and it's kind of interesting. Yeah yeah.
Andrew: Yeah, no, no, no, we get that too. Trust me, they they notice it immediately and they call it out immediately. Yeah.
Ryan: So 1 thing that I've been doing and you might have noticed this when you text me sometimes is with ios fifteen. They came out with those focus modes thing and so I just have it um like when I hit the geo fence around my house on weeknights.
Andrew: Yes, yes.
Ryan: Basically just have it go into like family mode where I don't get any notifications on my phone except for my wife and my daughter um and just to kind of keep that like the phone vibrates. You know, let me go pick it up thing keeping that you know breaking that habit.
Andrew: Yeah, well and you get to spend more time with your yeah.
Ryan: It's hard I feel like the pandemic has broken so many things in our you know society with electronics being like too much of a focus. So.
Andrew: Um, and you get to spend more time with your family and your your kids. But I mean here's the thing though you only have a couple of years until your kid wants nothing to do with you for the most part? Yeah yeah.
Ryan: And oh yeah I mean we're getting. We're in like the tween you know I mean you you are some more you're I Guess you're probably straddling both sides of it at this point. But yeah.
Andrew: But well our our older son is he's tech savvy but has no interest in a lot of this stuff at all which is Fine. He's got totally other other interests and he's actually really, it's weird Man. He's super conscientious and respectful and all this kind of stuff and you know. My wife and I are looking at each other like did we raise both kids I mean I'm pretty sure it's like oh you know I mean they there is something called the you know autonomy and agency like you know kids are gonna be what they're gonna be to some extent. You can do what you can You can do to try and mold it. But yeah, you know.
Ryan: Right. So yeah, that's ah, that's a that's a tough 1 and it's um, you know it makes me think about like the the you know the wall street journal has been hammering Facebook recently with a series of articles about just all of the you know the issues with.
Andrew: So yeah.
Ryan: With facebook and 1 of them being um, their well will Instagram and how it is self-reported making teenage I think emails right feel about themselves and this is self and it's self-reported which is much different than ah and then a ah study where they're reaching out to people.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah, oh yeah.
Andrew: Think about it if you if you were at a vulnerable age and and this is gonna be difficult for you to do what you know think of yourself as a a girl at a vulnerable age and you couldn't be happy with yourself unless you had a filter.
Ryan: And then also yeah.
Andrew: On every picture that you made imagine how that would make you feel because you know that that's not you right? that would make you feel terrible. You know.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah, no, it's yeah, it's and then you see so the the best the best way that I've heard this described and I can't remember who said this I wish I could attribute to them. But it's not my my saying but I always say this to my child I always say don't forget that. What you're doing especially things like Instagram so this whole thing came up with like they were working on Instagram for kids. But I can't imagine it something worse than Instagram for kids but is that you're comparing your insides to someone else's outsides right? So ah, you have to be like.
Andrew: Yeah, that's true. Yeah yeah.
Ryan: You know it's the it's a new version of keeping up with the joneses. It's a new version of the grass is always greener on the other side like it's like but it's much more you're exposed to it in real time. It's just not good. Yeah, it's not good for you. Um, anyway I don't remember where I was going with that. But but.
Andrew: Ah, it's that on crack man. Yeah.
Ryan: But the wall street if anybody wants to check out the the all the articles that the wall street journal has been doing on Facebook it almost is starting to feel like personal and vindictive like they have an agenda which they very about what they very may ah have but um, it's really oh I was just saying about just technology and kids and just like the addiction of it.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ryan: And just how like it's hard. It's really hard to know when when to allow because I don't want I don't want to raise a child that is scared of technology or doesn't know how to use it safely and in in a healthy way. Um, the same way I feel like my parents modeled like.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan: Alcohol to me which was it was a where every once a while they had a drink and it wasn't a big deal and so it wasn't a big deal to me right? um.
Andrew: Yeah I offer the beer and the wine to my kids every time we're out anywhere and they're all just like they smell they're like ew gross and I let them try a sip every now and again I agree man I agree with the more european model of that as opposed to the Puritan model that a lot of people have here.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's.
Andrew: Which is keep it away from them I think it just makes them desire it. You know and they want to go crazy. Yeah yeah.
Ryan: Yeah, no exactly and I feel like the more that we would then you know if if you make a I mean other than the situation that you may have found yourself in which is quite different. But if you if you just are real harsh about it. They they tend to want that so you have to be careful.
Andrew: Yes, yeah, no, no for sure Ryan I mean but.
Ryan: Yeah, it's not. It's a mind field like it's the is 1 of the biggest struggles of parenting I think is is managing the devices and stuff for sure.
Andrew: So yeah, well you know you you know me pretty well and we joke around a lot but let me just tell you something let me assure you of 1 thing. There's a certain line with me I'm a tourist I don't believe in astrology at all, but it is true. But.
Ryan: I'm also a tourist. Yeah yep, yep.
Andrew: It is true that if you you cross the bull you get the horns. You know I'm saying like I I'm slow to anger and you know I'm pretty laid back and can do all this kind of stuff but man when you cross that line. You are you are in trouble I'm gonna leave it I'm gonna leave it. Yeah I'm gonna leave it there.
Ryan: Yeah, you have to powder your your head. It'll be so red. Yep! absolutely.
Andrew: That a line has been crossed. Okay and I may be able to tell you the fair market value for a ten year old child.
Ryan: Ah, ah ah, what's next? yeah, no, it's.
Andrew: Ah, all right anyway moving moving I just thought that would be interesting to discuss because again, all of us are in tech and a lot of us either have kids or will have kids and you know this stuff happens this stuff happens and I agree with you man. Um. It's hard because tyler has a very strong interest in tech and you want to encourage that. But also you know at what point is it becoming unhealthy and that that is a it's a difficult thing to know and I think the answer is whenever first of all whenever something like this happens obviously but.
Andrew: But whenever the normal day-to-day things that they're supposed to be doing are impacted by the thing you know, whatever the thing is it could be anything. You know you could even argue that potentially Olympic athletes you could say that hey.
Andrew: Stuff that they have to start doing at the age they have to start doing it that could be unhealthy for them too. Um, but you know I think that's a whole another discussion because I don't there are many sports that if you don't do that I don't think you'll ever release. Sorry if you don't do that.
Ryan: Absolutely totally away. Yeah, so.
Andrew: I Don't think you will ever reach Olympic Athlete status if you don't start at a very young age and then you know I don't know it's kind of kind of dicey all right moving on I wanted to talk to you about Ee conf so expression engine conference just happened.
Andrew: Is a 2 day conference and I wanted to get the inside scoop from ee insider and I understand you are the on the reporter from e insider is that right.
Ryan: That is not true and andrew is referring to a site I used to run many years ago um over started over a decade ago and ceased running many years ago about ah like.
Andrew: I Just loaded up Ee Insider Dot Com and I think you're lying to me Ryan the page loads. There's news stories up there.
Ryan: Yeah, know it? Why I so what that is is I actually yeah, there's a news story from 2016. Um, what actually you know that what that is is i. Had the whole site ah crawled and generated static files and that whole site is served from an aws s 3 Bucket. So.
Andrew: Why though? why do why are you hanging onto this is it. You can't let go of the the serp. You really think that you're gonna like what what? why.
Ryan: No I just part of me just when I made that decision. It was like just in in keeping with like just the the idea that we shouldn't break links online that we should continue to keep things running and continue to keep. And I know that's like sounds like old man yellow yelling at cloud style stuff now. But I still think that you know we do so it doesn't like what does it cost me like 20 cents a month or something to keep that up there I have no idea not much.
Andrew: I Think this is the online equivalent of hoarding though right? if you're kind of keeping stuff around that you're never going to use.
Ryan: It' I that's true, but it doesn't it doesn't I don't ever think about it I don't do anything. Only thing I do is like the the s the the aws bill hits my amx every month and that's that's only that's the only like thing I have to do with it.
Andrew: This is the opposite of right? But if you think about it. So if these were physical goods in some way and they were cluttering your house. You would probably get rid of them.
Ryan: I I'll throw them away. No totally away. Yeah yeah.
Andrew: At 1 point right? You'd throw them out and maybe even you'd be environmentally conscious. Maybe you'd even recycle them by keeping this site up, you're actually kind of doing the opposite because you're you're putting the electricity and the the money and the server cpu and all that and it's it's being spent to keep this stuff. Keep this stuff out there and.
Ryan: I Yeah I don't know I mean.
Andrew: Is this something you want to show to your child 1 day and be like look that this is mine is that it.
Ryan: I I mean ah I don't know I mean is it. It's really very low effort and it's it honestly it there's probably a very little resources involved in keeping that up and running it's 1 It's 1 bucket on an ac s 3 account. It's not a.
Andrew: I Feel like you have problems letting go Ryan So do you have you know in in weird, you know, stuck between the pages of some of your books or you know in a folio somewhere buried in your basement. Do you have.
Andrew: You know all the pictures and letters from ex-girlfriends that you're still clinging to that are that are down there.
Ryan: No, no, no no I do have all the letters to my to and from my wife when we we have depart for a while when we before we got married. Yeah ah I don't no I'm not I'm actually not a I'm actually the opposite of a of a.
Andrew: Alright I'm just saying.
Ryan: A hoarder when we moved from North carolina to texas and we were getting ready to sell our house in North carolina I I went up in the attic and took everything out of the attic that we hadn't touched in the 7 years that we lived in that house put it in the backyard and called like 1 eight heart got junk and said please take all these things. Yes.
Andrew: And please take it nice. Yeah I've got I've got a barn here that I work out of and the the lovely thing about having extra so land and extra storage space.
Ryan: Yeah I didn't want anything to do with it anymore.
Andrew: Is when you want to put something away or you just can just shove it somewhere right? The horrible thing about that is that you're not forced to get rid of it. So right? So I and I actually did a whole bunch of work on this earlier this year and I still have stuff to do.
Ryan: Yeah, have you ever seen a farm. It's like just stuff everywhere.
Andrew: But I bought like a whole bunch of organizing stuff and I threw out a bunch of stuff but I still have like a decent amount of stuff that I want to organize over there but just the sheer amount of stuff that is there is ah it's it's it's overwhelming. You know it's really easy to accumulate stuff but all right man if you if you say so I'm just.
Ryan: Yeah. I Yeah so I don't I didn't have any of you to talk? Yeah I don't have anything to do with the the conference. Um I haven't watched any of the videos but you saw something with the front end editing on eepro that you wanted to talk about where it's.
Andrew: I'm thinking that you can let go of E Insider It's just he's let it go.
Ryan: It's a what did you call it a reverse or reverse live preview that like we have on krafcms.
Andrew: Yeah, well you can just steal my thunder in the big reveal. That's cool, right? Just just do that right up front. Let's just do that. But and I want to make this clear like I'm not bagging on Ee I'm actually looking at this from ah the point of view of I have been down this road.
Andrew: Where you're working on something and you you you take 1 step down and keep working and you you're led to a whole series of conclusions and you you think that the thing that you have produced is fantastic and then someone turns to you and says oh you just did x y or z and you're just like oh man. Yeah. That is kind of what ended up happening here. So let's let's frame this to make have it make more sense so a long time ago I don't even remember what Year it was I'm gonna say like 2009 I don't know when it came out but ee or sorry.
Andrew: Ellis Lab the company that makes expression engine which is a cms they came out with this thing called Mojo Motor and the idea was it would be a simple front end cms where you see the web page and then if you're logged in you can click a little edit button and the stuff that's on the page will then become editable.
Andrew: And it's actually very similar to chrome some people don't know this but chrome has this thing called design mode which is actually really cool and if you've never tried it before you should totally check it out what you can do is if you open up chrome and then open up the Console. You can do document dot design mode equals quote on and quote semicole and hit return and then what happens is you're the editor or sorry the web browser becomes an editor like you can just click on elements that are on the page and edit them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it becomes.
Ryan: You So you just yeah, you don't have to inspect just Click click rate on like ah some text and you can edit.
Andrew: Sort of like it's actually kind of fun. You can do some some pretty cool stuff with that and we'll we'll put a link to that in the show notes. But so that was Mojo motor and that that died a horrible death for whatever reason I Really don't know it just didn't Catch. You might know a E insider was probably right on. Right? on scene and knew what exactly what happened right.
Ryan: Yeah, so emoji motor was announced on june first of 2010 I just pulled it up on e insider um I don't know why it died I don't think it it. Ah.
Andrew: Oh my god.
Ryan: I assume it didn't do very well didn't solve a problem that they wanted to solve I have no idea. Um I yeah it was this was eleven 12 what 11 years ago now. Not sure.
Andrew: And for anyone who is nostalgic. Someone has actually made it a github Repo for Modo motor and they're trying to ah trying to bring it back I don't know just as an an experimental thing I guess I don't know.
Andrew: We'll put a link to that in the show notes too in any event 1 of the things that they announced at the expression engine conference is this thing called expression engine pro and you know I'm ah interested in the space I'm like oh cool, what is this pro. It's got a number of features in it. 1 of the. Probably the biggest major feature that is in. There is something kind of similar to mojo motor where you can be viewing the front end of the page and then you can hit a mode which is edit mode and then you can start editing and I watched a video of 1 of the developers explaining you know how they ended up. Where they were and doing the feature and you know he said initially the input the idea was we would just do inline editing and that didn't work what they ended up with was that you when you enter the editing mode a little icon appears next to the thing and you click it and a window opens up not a Modal but a window.
Andrew: And this is relevant the window opens up and it has all of the chrome of whatever the field is that you're editing right there in line and the reason why the window part of it is relevant is that you can open up as many of these as you want.
Ryan: So this bit of a small 1
Andrew: And they actually sort of developed a in-browser windowing system because you can make this look like you're the finder in the mac you can just open up a whole bunch of them and you can overlap them and drag them around and resize them and do all that kind of stuff on it and. Then here's the the slippery slope part of this is they said well all right? So we went Beyond simple editing of titles to be able to open up these windows that had the full field editor and we've already gone down that route now we need access to. More stuff that's in the cms so they they came up with a dock so there is literally a dock in this windows gui that they have there and so we really are getting to the point where we're kind of recreating the finder in the browser in a way.
Andrew: And the doc gives you what you would expect. It gives you access to some other parts of the backend cms in the front end and then they said okay but what about custom modules that are plugins that might want to add some significant functionality. How can we make those available in the front end and so they came up with an idea of prolits. Which are these little icons that sit in the dock along with some other system access stuff and you click on them and another window opens up with the gui for this? Yeah, third party add-on thing that is in there and I'm looking at this and it's 1 of those things where. When you look at the tech and what they've done. You're like all right, that's kind of cool. You know they were able to do that. But then you think about it and I'm like that is just backwards live preview you know because the actual web page itself is the preview.
Andrew: And instead of there being instead of that being inside of the Cp with all of the controls laid out. It's still on the front end but they just took everything that was in the back end and they brought it to the front end and the danger here is the slippery slope thing because they have brought so much.
Andrew: From the backend into the frontend literally What they've done is they've created a reverse live preview with a different gui with with just instead of the the fields being edited you know in sequential order.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: Fields now open up in windows that can be dragged and moved around and put wherever you want I think it's too much ryan I think it's 1 of those things.
Ryan: I wonder if it's ah if it's 2 different. Ah if the if it's 2 different ah like not code bases but like 2 different components to edit like ah a field here versus edit a field in the traditional.
Andrew: Well I think the chrome is different I think the actual code for the because they said third party stuff works without modification. So I think it's just the. It's so really, it's just the the chrome around it and the gui containers that it's organized into right.
Ryan: Control Panel backend. Ah that is the same yeah that makes sense. Yeah.
Andrew: Are different but they really just all they did is flip it and I'm not sure this is a good thing because I understand the idea is to make it easier to edit stuff on the front end like I get that but then they went down the road of but what? But what if they need to do this.
Ryan: You? Yeah well I.
Andrew: But what if they need to do that and where you start bringing in so much of the stuff that was in the back end that you've lost the simplicity that you were going for in the beginning and you're essentially just recreating the Cp in a finder interface on the front end. What do you think.
Ryan: But I mean maybe that's the maybe that's where like they're going to differentiate themselves I mean that's 1 of the problems that content management systems have right now is that it's really hard to differentiate yourself from everyone else and maybe that's.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah, so.
Ryan: Maybe that's where they're going I don't I don't know and I don't say I say this like truly like I don't know if there's a ah need for that type of editing like do people want to edit in that in that way I know with like Wix. And squarespace like you do get that visual editing where you just edit rate like in like ah, a wysiwig style thing. Um, but I don't know like right? It's kind of like it's kind of like an in-between thing but like for the type of projects that you would use something like.
Andrew: But this is not that this is not editing in a wyzzywig style. Yeah.
Ryan: Expression engine like do the editors want that type of interface for editing I don't know and it's pro right? So So is it like pro to me would be you know headless and you know like you know where you can you know use it as like an api like it's more of. You know like software development features versus editing capabilities. But again I think it's hard to differentiate yourself in the Cms space. Maybe this is their shot at it I did see that their their pricing is subscription either monthly or annual for pro versus a 1 time.
Andrew: Yeah, which is a good idea.
Ryan: Yeah, a 1 ne-time license and then you know K craftft does a 1 ne-time license and then a small annual fee to support the development of updates which um, which is actually got a honestly like a really good deal for the people buying the software I mean K craft puts so a lot of cmas has put way more than 59 dollars a year in value back.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: Right? right? I don't know man like ah um' I'm looking at this thing and I think it's a really interesting from an engineering point of view but I do think that it is in my opinion. It's going to end up being sort of a case study in.
Ryan: Into their systems. Um, yeah yeah I know it's interesting from from. Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: What happens when you go down the slippery slope on stuff like this because as you said this is an an in-between thing. So if someone like first of all I think the idea of making it easier for. Product owners or content authors to edit their content I think is laudable I mean obviously that is a fantastic goal and I think most cms's craft included have a lot of work to be done to make that easier. The problem is that. They have been bringing in so much of the functionality of the backend to the frontend that I think they have muddied that goal to some extent and then it's as you mentioned it's this in-between thing. So if a editor or a content author or a product owner is there and they're like oh cool. I'm going to edit this headline but I want this headline to appear over here. They can't do that if if they if they say you know I want this block to you know what? I'm saying so it's this weird right.
Ryan: It right? The kid do it. And that's the difference between this and like what you can do with like squarespace or right where you can actually move things around in ah on the page and stuff like I still fixed I Assume it's still fixed based on the template and I know like you know more about the.
Ryan: You pro thing that I do um but if ah I assume it's still fixed and it's the same thing we you know if we when you use craft right? You're still dealing with the the fixed components as well. They're just kind of fixed on the page.
Andrew: Yeah, but in in the end I think that what they have done is not created a front end editing mode I think they have just created a reverse live preview where they they've got instead of a live preview being on the side and the.
Andrew: Editing controls on the left or whatever the arrangement is now the the live preview is the whole page and they've got a Macos window interface on top of it which I'm going to call it here I don't think this is going to be a good direction to take it I just don't.
Ryan: All right? Andrew has weighed in Judge andrew.
Andrew: You know? well you know and I do it I'm saying this also I'm kind of sympathetic cause I have done this like I you know what I mean I have definitely done this where I've invested an incredible amount of time working on something and ending up at a point. And then just being like oh my God What did I What did I Do you know what? I mean. Yeah I don't know.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah, no ah I do that all the time. Ah yeah, so I I'll be curious to see it launches on on the sixth of October so just probably soon after this this podcast is out.
Andrew: Yeah. Correct. Yeah.
Ryan: Um, so like I'll be curious if if like I would actually try it out if they have a trial because I just purely out of curiosity and see what's going on I haven't used expression engine in a long time So be curious to see what's what's going.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: Um, I think this is not so on a technical level I think it's really cool like I think what they have accomplished is is pretty awesome I Think the I don't want to say failure because I haven't even used it yet and but the problematic part of it is. And think is more from a product owner point of view in terms of at a higher level. What is this doing I think is where the the issue is here. Not the the technical implementation because that actually looks really cool. Yeah, and who is this for.
Ryan: Right? What's the it's the roadmap. It's like what where are we going Look what's the trajectory of the of the product. Yeah, right? yeah.
Andrew: You know and I mean like who who is this forbe and and have we really made things easier for that executive or you know whatever like what? what have we accomplished how much easier it is is it for them to do X Y or Z as opposed to logging into the Cp and doing it. You know I don't know.
Ryan: You? Yeah yeah, we'll have to see it Hopefully when it comes out. We'll we'll build Oh I always want to kind of look get it and try it and see.
Andrew: Mate. Maybe.
Andrew: The 1 advantage that I can see is it's contextual from the point of view of the the person can go to the web page and they can say this is what I want to edit as opposed to going in the cp and fumbling around and trying to find it.
Andrew: But maybe the answer there is something like will brower and I think wordpress they have a little button that if you're logged in. There's an admin bar and you just click edit this page and it will just take you to that page in the Cp and then you just do your thing there? Yeah yeah.
Ryan: I Yeah um I've done that for clients before? Yeah um I.
Andrew: But you know maybe that's the answer in terms of making the context easier. You know so.
Ryan: Yeah, so ah anyway I hope you know I agree I'm just I'm curious enough to want to like see it for myself. Um, so it sounds like there's all sorts of new things dropping in in ah and October isn't the nextx.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan: 3 isn't that coming in October as well in the Beta. Yeah.
Andrew: Nux 3 is coming in October and I'm gonna be betening down the hatches and converting some stuff over using nuxt and seeing where we go with that I'm looking forward to that especially because it uses ve which is something that I have been enthusiastically adopting and have even made some.
Ryan: And nice. Nice. Yeah I am too.
Ryan: Yeah I've also ah adopted it but maybe not unenthusiastically, but maybe just less enth eniastically that you.
Andrew: Plugins for vet and for Rollup and it.
Andrew: Ah, fair enough. That's fine I mean it's just a tool that accomplishes a goal but also I am looking forward to it because I get to use view 3 which has been rewritten in typescript and I want to be using typescript everywhere. So I'm pretty thrilled to be able to start doing this now.
Andrew: Very possible that in you know a month into it I'm just like Jesus right? Like what am I doing why is this? Why is this a thing. Um.
Ryan: Yeah, what are you going to use for your um like for the the data endpoint like the graphql endpoint youre going to use K craft you're going to use like ah 1 of the head with. Hosted head of a cms tools. Do you know yet.
Andrew: So I'm going to be using craft and that is actually 1 of the points of the exercise actually is a side benefit that I get from doing this is I'm going to be able to write some helper libraries. And some functionality for my plugins to ensure that they work super super well headless because I'm going to be using them headless so there is that dual kind of benefit of doing that. But I Also want to see how easy it is going to be to divorce the front end from the back end.
Ryan: Nice, nice, nice. Nice.
Andrew: And do it in that manner and you know that also does lead the flexibility down the road that if I did want to switch out the back end I could do that? Um I don't have any plans to do that I'm more interested in this from a a front end point of view.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: Ah, for the the actual website itself for some other projects I Very well might be using nuxt in that kind of dual role where it's running on the server and it's running on the client and instead of php you know sitting there running something.
Ryan: Right? so.
Andrew: You Know'll end up being just just the next step. So we're going to see.
Ryan: Yeah I was gonna use it for my personal site. Um, but I was planning on maybe just doing it just with markdown first instead of having to spin up a whole like cms for it since my personal site is.
Andrew: Yep, so.
Ryan: Actually running microblog right now. Yeah anyway.
Andrew: I yeah and but yeah, that was part of the point really though for me anyway was that I wanted to be able to switch out the front end and not the back end like I want to and you know I've done this before to 1 degree or another but I want to do this with my own.
Andrew: Personal project with nux 3 because it's gonna be in Beta right? So I don't want to be monkeying around with this stuff on ah on client work. But I I think it's gonna be. It's gonna be interesting I think it's gonna be kind of fun to do and ah we'll see where we end up going with that 1 of the other things I wanted to talk to you about is we've got this dot all conferencing.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah, makes sense.
Andrew: Coming up soon and it has switched over to be an online only conference despite Brandon's Brandon doesn't like online conferences I think I think this was the last thing that they they wanted to end up doing I still think it's gonna end up being. Fantastic and and anyone who is interested in craft cms should should actually should definitely check it out. But what do you think about this whole thing moving to online.
Ryan: I mean I I do a ton like everything I do is online like all my training videos and it's a world that I've been living in I'm comfortable in and I feel like I've gotten ah pretty competent at communicating online. I get that you don't get the the I understand that you don't get the the face-to-face communication and the the networking and just seeing people that you've you know seen and and or even like those like ad hoc conversations.
Andrew: I'm sorry what'd you say.
Ryan: Meeting people. Um and and weren't meeting new people like so it's never it's never going to be like that. It's it's you're still at the end of the day. It's yet another like time spent sitting staring at a screen and like you know, the nice thing about something like.
Andrew: Yep yep.
Ryan: All in person or any conference in person is that you can attend those with a paper Notebook and you know take pictures of slides for things that you want to remember and not really have you know, be staring out a laptop for.
Andrew: I'm with you man I go to these conferences for the people I mean honestly that is the the reason that I go and in fact I'm going to tell a kind of funny story. The first time I met ryan ryan was actually having a in-depth conversation with someone about his video site.
Andrew: I Think it was like ah Ian Landsman or or someone who actually was someone who is is very competent. You know doing this this type of thing and I'm just sitting there. Nobody knows me from anybody this is you know, long time ago and I just kept on interrupting I kept on going.
Ryan: That's right, those was it It was Ian I Think yeah yeah, yeah.
Ryan: Yeah, this is ah.
Andrew: You know I was just like ah Ryan um you know and you could do this that the other thing you know we're talking I was talking about the stuff and I could see the look in your eyes like who is this idiot like I want to talk to aan about this I don't know who this dumbass is why and why is he? Why is he talking to me, you know.
Ryan: Ah, would you you? yeah but it's it's funny though that you that our first encounter was you giving me like advice based on your experience I think this is for some of the other like subscription sites that you had done or something like that. Um.
Andrew: Like why is that.
Andrew: Yes, right? yeah.
Ryan: And it was interesting that you did that because that's that's we like even just as of like Friday like we're still having those same types of conversations. So ah, no, that's true that was in 20 I think the 1 is in was that 2015 or 2016 it was
Andrew: Yeah, you're listening now aren't you. But.
Andrew: Yeah, but that's sort of in in to some extent the way I am in that I am very easily open to just talking to people and um, you know.
Ryan: But a while ago. Um I.
Andrew: I Realize that it can be a little overwhelming. You know when you're just like who is this idiot Why is he talking to me what does he know you know, whatever, but the the thing about conferences also is that you're captive so you buy your ticket to this conference the in-person conference and you're going even if.
Andrew: A particular show not show a particular speaker. Maybe you think it doesn't interest you you're gonna you're gonna watch it right? because you're already there. You're already in the auditorium. There's a little snack bar out there. Everyone else is there. You're kind of you're you're committed. You know what? I mean like you are signed up and you're there for it.
Ryan: I yeah.
Andrew: I Think with online conferences. It's a lot easier to just cherry pick look at the titles be like this doesn't interest me that doesn't interest me this doesn't interest me Oh I know this person I'm gonna watch this. You know, whatever and I think that you probably will miss some. Talks that might be actually really good because all you did was look at the title and it's so easy for you. You're not captive. You can just click a button and close a window.. What do you think.
Ryan: So yeah, no I agree and I think that um, it's to to kind of extend like what you're saying a little bit further is that attending a conference. You know if you pay all that money to go see it I think there's also you have a little bit more invested. Um.
Andrew: Right? yep.
Ryan: And then also like it should be like work like there should be some work involved in attending a conference where you are. You're having to push yourself a little bit. Maybe you're sitting in a talk that is slightly above like your current like knowledge level of of you know the topic but you have to push yourself to. Kind of like stick with it. There should be a little bit of work There conferences aren't all socializing. Um nor should they be just all like just you know like nerding out there should be a mix of both but they should be a little bit of like effort and work involved to get the most out of the conference and.
Andrew: So I agree with you but I'm laughing because I think there's a huge chunk of people that it's the entire opposite. It is a lot of these conferences are little vacations that they can take.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: You know, maybe they love their family but it's still nice to get away from their family every now and again or or the job pays for it or if you're self-employed. It's ah it's a deduction or I've always wanted to go to amsterdam.
Ryan: Okay, and the job pays for it. Yeah.
Andrew: You know what? I mean and this is an excuse and I can write it off and the business can pay for it and I think there are a lot and not even just in in the tech business. But I see it all over the place that I knew some people that were very involved in financial services. And man they would just pick the ritziest Nicest Island to go to you know what? I mean where it's just they're not even trying to hide that this is this is a vacation. You know what? I mean What do you think about that aspect of these conferences.
Ryan: I yeah right? Yeah and well I mean that's not my like That's not my style I will say though that when dot all was in Berlin um. I absolutely like enjoyed every moment of it because I love brulin as a city. It was really good to be back there again and be staying like in a central location and I had some extra days I was able to take a train and go see some family but ah. So but I don't when I go to a conference I'm doing it as time ah away from like my family and I like to take trips with my family and so I just see it as it's for to me, it's it's work like I want to go and be very focused on what I'm trying to do a lot of times.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan: You know if I'm not like talking or or you know speaking or teaching then I want to try to get as much out of it as I can and for me personally my like my social cup like can get like depleted very quickly. So like I try to you know.
Andrew: Right? right.
Ryan: Strategically have as many like interactions as I can before I have to you know refill and then go back out so you don't I'm not the kind of person that's I'm not gonna be out like late at night like drinking. Um I I kind of see ah maybe not I mean I don'm not sure what your experience is, but. I kind of see like the quality of the conversation sort of diminish diminishes as it gets later into the night yeah that's true. Yeah yeah, go for yeah.
Andrew: Ah, ah, it depends on what you're what you're after. But um, I'm Ryan I'm gonna call you out Man I'm have to call you out I remember being at a conference with you and I remember coming up and you were hanging out on the deck. And I'm like I'm gonna go in and listen to the speaker you coming in, you're like no I'm just gonna hang out here now. Oh okay, all right? And then I come back out and you're out there doing whatever and then yeah, we little break between speakers like all right I'm gonna go back in I'm gonna go see this speaker and you are you coming you like? No no.
Ryan: Yeah, yes.
Andrew: I think I'm just gonna I'm gonna stay here I think you spent the entire damn day Ryan on the deck on the deck I'm not sure I don't remember they all blend together but I remember the events I remember it happened that was not the the studious Ryan trying to get the most.
Ryan: On the deck was that in those in Berlin right? was that in Berlin. Yeah. Okay. Well I mean going to I didn't say go to everything I said just go to yeah it just ends. Ah, ah all right? Andrew welch.
Andrew: This video ah anything.
Andrew: Ah, okay, so here's I take it a little bit differently than you do I think which is that I don't view it. Okay so I don't view them as pure vacations if a if a talk.
Andrew: If I think I'm really going to get something out of a talk I Absolutely you know pay attention to it I'm not taking notes though I'm not doing that kind of thing I more look at the the speakers as people that can open my mind to ideas or techniques or technologies that I I hadn't considered using before right? So I don't.
Andrew: I'm not trying to figure out where to put the semicolon I'm trying to get a cool higher level idea of stuff that I can look into later and I do very much enjoy the the social aspect of of going to these things. The hard work.
Andrew: That I put in in I put hard work in quotes that I do when I go to these conferences typically has ended up being sort of impromptu collaborations with people there so you know for instance Josh angel and I at 1 of the conferences I don't remember which 1 it was.
Andrew: There There was some kind of thing being some kind of workshop being presented and he and I were sitting next to each other and we were both like the kids in the back not paying attention to the teacher because we were working together on getting this auto complete thing working with with a Ph P storm and and graphql where like where there has to be a way.
Andrew: Do this and we're like we're We're totally ignoring. What's being presented but we're working on something and we're doing something really cool and by the end of the day we had you know I had a blog post out and boom it was up and there so we were working but we're doing it a little bit off script. You know what I'm saying.
Ryan: You? Yeah no, no so you were you you were you were 1 of the people with your laptops with your head buried in your laptop the whole time.
Andrew: No, this was during the actual workshop we were done by the workshop was done So after that we were just out having drinks. Yeah yeah.
Ryan: Right? right? Yeah I mean fair enough but I guess everyone can just do whatever they want for the conferences. So.
Andrew: This is where you can say I can see why you couldn't finish that damn book Andrew did you want to say something about the reading level by the way.
Ryan: Ah, exactly ah, reading level. So um, most books at least in the us like Mainstream novels like those types. Books are written basically around like the fifth grade reading level. That's a pretty standard reading level. Um newspaper articles things like that all fifth grade reading level and so I can see why sometimes it would be hard for you and to think to to not like. Get in to not be able to read a book like you read when on your vacation when you're tired because it actually takes more effort to read a book that is ah that is above the typical like reading level of what you read like just go to like.
Andrew: So you're you're saying that I'm a dummy and you're saying that my reading level you're saying is ah about on par with what with Thomas train is that where you're saying.
Ryan: No I'm saying that like I.
Ryan: Every day if you go to like Google news or you know or whatever. The news source is that you read from and you read an article or if you read somebody's blog post or if you read ah you know a how to article for something. That they are typically all written around the fifth grade reading level when you get into something that has more complex like structure of content and and uses different vocabulary than I mean even ran into this with like some vocabulary words that were just like what the heck is this word. Um.
Andrew: Right? yeah.
Ryan: That it just becomes. It's a harder read and it's so like again it it just requires. It's like you know you've done. Um, you do a lot of a lot of hiking you've done. Um I don't did you do triath I forget what you said you did in the past um running but you know that like part of it. There's just like. Hard work that is involved in doing it and it's not always fun and sometimes that's what it is with reading too once you get into the the more complex text where especially older stuff. Well your book was written in I don't know what Year that 1 was written. Yeah so again, it's also even just a different like style.
Andrew: Yes, yes.
Andrew: late late Eighteen hundreds I Believe yeah yeah, there's ah, an algorithm I think the classic 1 is kincaid fleischman I think is the 1 where it does a reading level analysis but there there are a number of other ones that that do it too. You're probably right on that count I mean.
Ryan: Of of writing as well. So.
Andrew: The thing is about it wasn't that honestly it wasn't the difficulty of the book or the approachability of it and you're right that ah on a lot of these things whether it's you know the marathons or weight training or whatever. The hardest part of it I think is mental is being like all right look I may not be. Perfectly here but I gotta do this I gotta sit down I gotta do it I can't make excuse. It's just it has to happen and this was supposed to be a book that I was supposed to be reading for enjoyment on vacation right? So I wouldn't want it to be that difficult anyway. But you're right that there was vocabulary in this book.
Ryan: Right? right.
Andrew: And I remember reading it with my wife and she I was reading in bed and she would see me like go to my phone and she's like are you looking up another word I'm like yeah I'm looking up another word. Okay, you know she's like do you know how to read I'm like yes I know how to read how dare you and I.
Ryan: Ah, now you're actually a good reader for looking the word up if you can't understand the meaning meaning based on the context of the sentence or the sentences surrounding it if you can't determine the meaning then you do look it up and I tell my kid this all the time I said if if you can't figure it out.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan: Context then look it up because otherwise you're going to be reading all these books. You'll be passing up all these new opportunities to learn new words. So I just dropped in um ah a link to an article that I wrote on kraft quest. See so this is the it's the flesh kincaid reading like so ah flesh kincaid reading the grade level for the the article that I wrote was 5 point Nine. So basically almost sixth grade level but not very good.
Andrew: Yeah, there it is yeah.
Ryan: Readability test results from this um tool that I'm using was a 65 which means it should be easily understood by 12 to 13 year olds and that is and this is an article that I wrote actually with um grammarly you know the tool grammarly. So I I mean I'm just like a.
Andrew: I do.
Ryan: Paid user of it I use it all the time just to catch like you know passive ah use of the passive voice which isn't it while it's acceptable and used wide we in like german and other languages in in English. It's not acceptable and then ah just for other things. So it's. Um, my writing is technically good, but it's also again, it's written at that like fifth sixth grade level which is pretty typical. It's not interesting.
Andrew: But the the thing is I actually 1 of the things I enjoyed about reading Moby dick herman melville I actually really enjoyed learning about some of these old words that were in there and and not even old words that were in there people just don't speak today.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: The way that they did back then and then also the writing probably was a little bit different too in terms of people are trying to show off how scholarly they are by. You know how literate they are by putting stuff down but it was also all of the nautical terms that I had no idea about that were super super interesting to me when I was reading that this book.
Ryan: Oh yeah, totally. Here.
Andrew: Um, probably every other page there was yeah every four pages I should say there was probably a word or 2 that I I was just like I'm not really sure what that means and I feel so much better because you were making fun of me and I called you out I was just all right ryan you think these d they're so smart.
Ryan: I didn't know the words. Yeah, so.
Andrew: Like I am I am relatively well read I realize I may come off as a neanderthal or you know a bike mechanic or whatever but I actually am relatively well read. Even though I haven't done it in decades. Okay, and so I fed you some of the words I'm gonna say 1 of them now. 1 of them was declivity.
Ryan: Yeah, and I I knew it was related to proclivity and.
Andrew: Declivity and you had no idea what that was which is it's fine. Yeah, and then the other word was Recrudescence Recrudescence and these both of these words were in the same paragraph and yeah.
Ryan: I yeah I don't know that 1
Andrew: Maybe it's a coincidence but I think that's the page that I stop reading at right? Ah anyway.
Ryan: Ah, ah well, that's good. So it's a a good lesson is there's no shame in in setting a book aside if you realize it's not for you that doesn't mean you doesn't mean you don't give up.
Andrew: Yeah, it is for me though it is for me I am actually in I'm enjoying this book I just wasn't in a you know I was in a I would rather go to sleep than read this book mode.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: And then during the day there was no time to be doing no reading like it was a vacation with kids is not the same as just 2 people going on vacation where you can actually have time to just sit there and relax and and do something you're constantly. Handling 1 issue or another you're constantly trying to keep them entertained. You're constantly doing stuff with them so during the day there's a zero time to actually do anything like that and then at night I was just tired man. That's what it is you know, but that.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan: Yeah, Alright Andrew you.
Andrew: But that about wraps it up for another episode of the demo fm podcast have every episode sent to your podcast player subscribe to our rss feed subscribe via youtube itunes all the things ryan thank you for coming on this Sunday and doing this re-recording with me.
Ryan: No problem. Thanks andrew.
Andrew: And pity me because I'm going to be editing now.
Andrew: That all right, that was good man see we. We didn't really rehash what we did before. Hopefully it was a fresh and interesting convo.
Ryan: You no I yeah did you see my message I don't I still don't see any waveforms in Zencastr for myself.
Andrew: Well let's find out.